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Poor Todd Friel is Lost

May 22, 2012 by     117 Comments    Posted under: Uncategorized

One of my favorite Christian commentators sent an email out this week commenting on the the “GAY” issue that has been the buzz of the country lately. President Obama commented he supported same-sex marriages and of course, the commentators commented. Todd Friel is one of those.

He points to a number of headlines:

  1. The Wall Street Journal’s “Are Dads the New Moms?”
  2. CNN’s “Single Mothers, Stand Proud.”
  3. USA Today’s “Why Ban on Women in Combat Needs to End.”
  4. CNN’s “Baseball Final Forfeited Because of a Girl at Second Base.”
  5. The Montreal Gazette’s “Genderless Passports Under Review in Canada.”

He then asks:
Perhaps evangelicals should be asking, “How in the world did we get here?”

OO! OO!! Pick Me Todd! (Hands Raised) I can tell you Todd! It’s because we have forgotten the TORAH! You know, the basic instructions that God provided for his children. Torah in Hebrew actually translates into Instructions and not LAW like our Bible versions tell us.

But today you have people like Todd Friel and other evangelicals…well all of Christianity for that matter teaching that the Old Testament Laws are done away with. Well Todd, that would include the one about homosexuality. The church has done such a good job at getting rid of the Torah. Is it a HUGE surprise that we even have entire churches embracing homosexual lifestyles?

Why not? You have entire churches having PORK pig roasts on Sunday afternoons! YHVH in his TORAH calls eating pig an Abomination, JUST a few chapters before he calls HOMOSEXUALITY an abomination. WHY in the World does Todd Friel think that the practice of men sleeping with men is still a sin but somehow, eating a ham sandwich is no problem?

I love Todd, I really do, but he has to understand that the Christian church has for a long time misunderstood the writings of Paul.

2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his(PAUL’s) epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned(unleared in TORAH) and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Todd and others have done such a great job at teaching the Law is done away with (with the exception of those Ten Commandments), that most of Christianity and the world has completely embraced lawlessness, TORAHLESSNESS! We are no longer a light to the nations(gentiles). The TORAH is what brings the light! Jesus/Yeshua was that Torah. He was the Torah(Word) made flesh. A perfect example in which to follow!

If Jesus/Yeshua was the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE….

“Blessed are the undefiled in the WAY, who walk in the TORAH of the LORD.”
Psalms 119:1

“Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy TORAH is the TRUTH.”
Psalms 119:142

The TORAH of the wise is a fountain of LIFE, to depart from the snares of death.
Proverbs 13:14

But NOOOO!! Todd and others claim that Jesus lived the Law perfectly so we wouldn’t have to…and the ceremonial Law is done away with. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS CEREMONIAL LAW IN THE BIBLE. In fact God says there is ONE LAW!

“There is to be ONE TORAH and one ordinance for you and for the alien who sojourns with you.”

Ex. 12:49
“The SAME TORAH shall apply to the native as to the stranger who sojourns among you.”

Todd and others have mistakenly misinterpreted the book of Hebrews to mean that the old law was too hard. But that idea contradicts more scripture.

Deuteronomy 30:11
Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach.

1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not burdensome.

You see, we have forgotten the TORAH, the INSTRUCTIONS of our Father and have taught a NEW WAY to God, which fails the Deuteronomy 13 test. We have taught a different Messiah then the one who came to free us from the transgressions of our sins of the law, not the law itself.

Our best option at this late point in the game is to repent and get back to the Torah and relearn what the Fathers instructions are for His children. We need to STOP teaching this ridiculous notion that the Messiah came to free us from the law and instead teach that He came to FREE US FROM THE PUNISHMENT OF TRANSGRESSING HIS LAW.

117 Comments + Add Comment

  • ACH! I love Todd Friel’s stuff …. but you’re right! Great article …. keep it up!

  • Amen, brother.

  • Colossians 2:16,17
    Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ.

    Many of the OT laws were given in order to foreshadow to the body of Christ. Israel was set apart from the unGodly. Israel was to be a witness to the gentile world. The gentiles ate all kinds of meat, ham included. So the gentiles were considered unclean. Clean meat represented the Jews, unclean meat represented the gentiles. We know that Jesus came to save both Jews and gentiles, but this would be hard for the Jews to accept having always obeyed the OT laws. As we see in Acts 11:1-18, the laws on meat eating were a foreshadow. God now can call gentiles clean. The meat laws helped them to understand this, and just how great God really is, how Christ can cleanse us, and how he sets us free. It’s truly brilliant.

    “WHY in the World does Todd Friel think that the practice of men sleeping with men is still a sin but somehow, eating a ham sandwich is no problem?” – That is because after Christ’s sacrifice, death, burial, and resurrection, we are told again that homosexuality is still wrong, but we are not told that eating ham is wrong. As you can see in the verses above, if it was to foreshadow the body of Christ, then it would no longer be necessary to continue.

    • Forest,

      Colossians 2:16-17 is Paul saying, “Let no man judge you” IN KEEPING THOSE DAYS! Not for not keeping them! Reverse your context.

      First of all, Jews are only from the House of Judah. There were 12 tribes in Israel and Judah was only one of them. By the time of Jesus, only the House of Judah remained. “Jews” or Hebrews could also be unclean if they touched a dead animal until evening, even a clean one. Go back and read Leviticus 11. There is no verse in the Old Testament that says that the Gentiles ONLY were unclean. Anyone, even Hebrews could be unclean if they didn’t follow the Torah. God said there was one law, for both the GENTILES AND THE NATIVE BORN! Anyone could be GRAFTED in.

      Did you miss the verse I posted above?????????

      Ex. 12:49
      “The SAME TORAH shall apply to the native as to the stranger who sojourns among you.”

      Nothing in the NEW TESTAMENT reverses the unclean meats into clean meats! You have mistaken the writings of Paul just like Peter said!

      • You’re partially right in your first comment. He is saying let no man judge you in meat. But he is speaking of both eating and not eating certain meats. It says in the verse that the laws of the things mentioned were a foreshadow. What it was foreshadowing has already come to pass, so it’s no longer a necessary law. What Paul teaches in other places is that if eating certain meats troubles your conscience, then don’t eat them. So I would would say the same to you, if it bothers you to eat ham, then please don’t eat it.

        I know not all Hebrews were always clean and all Gentiles were always unclean, but it is how it was generally looked at by default, at the time. The way it was basically viewed, was that unclean meat represented the Gentiles.

        Galatians 3:23-26
        But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

        The law was our schoolmaster, we are no longer under the schoolmaster if our faith is in Christ. Therefore, our faith in Christ sets us free!

        • If you’re under a schoolmaster, and you learn what was supposed to be TAUGHT by the schoolmaster, do you forsake what you’ve been taught? You shouldn’t, if the whole point was for you to learn.

          For example, you learned addition in school. Since you’ve graduated, did that nullify the laws of addition? I mean, you’re not under your schoolmaster anymore … do you just say, “Ahhh … addition is no longer valid because I’m not in school.”

          I hope you don’t. What right do ANY of us have to divide up God’s Law?

          Jesus himself said one jot or tittle would by NO MEANS pass from the Law till ALL is fulfilled. Even in the End, in Isaiah, it talks about all nations flowing to Mt. Zion to learn God’s Law. (Is. 2:3)

          Do you think that God has given us a 2000 year “break” from His Law? Sounds like God is a little fickle, if that is the case.

          • Right there in those verses it says we are no longer under a schoolmaster (the law). I think you misunderstand what the law was teaching. What it was teaching is that we can’t keep the law, only Jesus could. This is why we must put our trust in His work, his fulfillment. For us, in Him, it is fulfilled, and we are no longer under the law.

            If your trust is not completely in Jesus, well then yes, you are still under the law. Have fun trying to keep it, because you can’t.

          • I won’t argue that you can’t perfectly keep the Law … I know that I surely can’t, that’s why we have Jesus. He is our salvation!

            God didn’t give us the Law to save us (the Law was never a means of salvation). He gave us the Law so that we could be a witness to the nations. Check the parallel in the OT … God gave the Law from Sainai (or Horeb? … don’t have a bible right next to me) AFTER He had saved His people from Egypt.

            You see, Salvation by Faith has ALWAYS been the equation, even before Jesus. An entire generation perished in the wilderness because they didn’t have faith.

            Unfortunately, the OT/NT paradigm (added by fallible man, not unchangeable God) blinds a lot of people to these realities. As was already mentioned … God NEVER changes. His Word NEVER changes.

          • I agree, He never changes and neither does His Word. The most important thing is if you are depending on Jesus to save you, and nothing else.

          • Jesus and the Word are ONE and they don’t contradict each other. I depend on Jesus AS the Word. And I can see the Torah backs up Jesus’ words … they don’t contradict. Modern day christianity would like you to believe so, but they don’t. They would like to “spiritualize” things, but it’s really quite simple.

        • AMEN, brother

    • Forest, you (and so many others like you) want to cling to Colossians 2:16-17 as though it sets you free from obedience to the Father. I used to do the very same thing when I was heavily involved with the Way of the Master ministry, and used to listen EVERY DAY to the old Way of the Master Radio show (with host, Todd Friel). I believed we had been “set free from the Law”, etc., and was SURE of it. (Yet ironically enough, I walked around pounding the Ten Commandments and erroneously referring to them as the “Moral Law”!)

      So Colossians 2:16-17 is the passage that supposedly unravels the Father’s commandments? This is the one that sets you (and all of evangelical Christianity free from things like the Sabbath, the new moons, the dietary laws, and the feast days of Yahweh, right?) If this is the case, why then are we told in Isaiah 66, (which speaks of a time YET FUTURE TO US):

      22 “For as the new heavens and the new earth which I will make shall remain before Me,” says Yahweh, “So shall your descendants and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass that from one NEW MOON to another, and from one SABBATH to another, All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says Yahweh. 24 “And they shall go forth and look upon the corpses of the men who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, and their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

      What does it say in Isaiah 56?

      1 Thus says Yahweh: “Keep justice, and do righteousness, for My salvation is about to come, and My righteousness to be revealed. 2 Blessed is the man who does this, and the son of man who lays hold on it; who keeps from defiling the SABBATH, and keeps his hand from doing any evil.” 3 Do not let the son of the foreigner who has joined himself to Yahweh speak, saying, “Yahweh has utterly separated me from His people”; nor let the eunuch say, “Here I am, a dry tree.” 4 For thus says Yahweh: “To the eunuchs who keep My SABBATHS, and choose what pleases Me, and hold fast My covenant, 5 even to them I will give in My house and within My walls a place and a name better than that of sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name that shall not be cut off. 6 “Also the sons of the foreigner who join themselves to Yahweh, to serve Him, and to love the name of Yahweh, to be His servants—EVERYONE who keeps from defiling the SABBATH, and holds fast My covenant— 7 even them I will bring to My holy mountain, and make them joyful in My house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be accepted on My altar; for My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.” 8 Yahweh GOD, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, says, “Yet I will gather to him others besides those who are gathered to him.”

      Do you still believe you’re “free” from observing the feasts of Yahweh? (I do not know why on earth you would WANT to be, and besides, I’m sure you celebrate Christmas and Easter anyway. Didn’t Jesus already fulfill those? If so, according to the theology that hammers away about how “Jesus fulfilled it all, so we don’t have to do it [i.e. Keep the Torah],” then why would you be celebrating THOSE days? I digress.)

      16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, Yanweh of hosts, and to keep the FEAST OF TABERNACLES. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, Yahweh of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which Yahweh strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the FEAST OF TABERNACLES. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the FEAST OF TABERNACLES. (Zechariah 14)

      ((Notice how all of the aforementioned passages refer to a time yet future to this day, Thursday June 7, 2012.))

      Now then, something very interesting happens when we examine 1 Corinthians 5, one of Paul’s letters to a group of Gentiles. You will see in a minute how it relates to Colossians 2:16-17:

      12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”

      (By the way, “outside” and “inside” of WHAT? Well, outside and inside the body of Christ, of course!)

      Now look at Colossians 2 again:

      16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the body [is] of Christ.

      (You will notice here, that the word “is” is in italics in the Bible, and you can check this if you look at an Interlinear Bible or a Concordance; “is” simply is NOT there. And really, it renders the passage unintelligible.)

      The English translators punctuated for English grammar as they saw fit.

      Now, please allow me, (as you have all the different translators and boards and committees to do so in all our English translations), to punctuate Colossians 2:16-17 the way it is apparent Paul would have, had he written it in English. You will then see how it completely harmonizes with the 1 Corinthians 5 passage, specifically in its 12th and 13th verses:

      16 So let no one judge you, (in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come), but the body of Christ.

      See it?

      “So let no one judge you…but the body of Christ.”

      Now look again at 1 Corinthians 5:12-13 and see how they completely harmonize with Colossians 2:16-17:

      12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”

      Clearly Paul was telling the believers in Colossae, an area surrounded by pagan culture, NOT to allow the pagans there, (who are obviously OUTSIDE the body of Christ), to judge THEM, (who were INSIDE the body of Christ), FOR keeping the Torah of Yahweh!

      Additionally, Forest, look what Paul says to the Gentile believers in Corinth, in 1 Corinthians 5:

      7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our PASSOVER, was sacrificed for us. 8 Therefore let us KEEP THE FEAST,…

      Now if you want to keep contending that Paul, or anybody else – especially Yeshua (“Jesus”) would EVER instruct us AWAY FROM the FOREVER commandments of the Father, go ahead – but do so to your own peril, and all the while overlooking verses such as these from Psalm 119:

      43 And take not the WORD OF TRUTH (cf. 2Tim2:15) utterly out of my mouth, For I have hoped in Your ordinances. 44 So shall I keep Your Torah (“law”) CONTINUALLY, FOREVER AND EVER.

      I love you, brother, and I hope you will see what I also failed to see for so long.


  • Additionally, Acts 11 is relaying the story that happened in Acts 10. The whole point of the vision of the animals was NOT the nullification of the dietary laws.

    Act 10:28 Then he said to them, “You know how unlawful it is for a Jewish man to keep company with or go to one of another nation. But God has shown me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

    It’s very helpful to read the Word in context of the history that it is written in. Since the return from exile in Babylon, the role of the Gentiles in the Kindom was a serious issue in Israel. Dietary issues were NEVER an issue.

    • Right, the vision Peter had in Acts 10 & 11 was to show Peter and the Hebrews that the Gentiles are no longer to be considered unclean. But like you said we have to look at it in context. In context, the other verses I mentioned show that the dietary laws were only a foreshadow, and Peter’s vision explains the foreshadow.

      If eating any certain meats troubles your conscience, then you should avoid eating them. But our faith in Christ has set us free of the dietary laws. Nowhere in the NT are we told to continue with them. Consider Galatians 2 & 3.

      • If you want a good study on what happened in Galatians, I would like to recommend a great study by Rick Spurlock (http://www.bereansonline.org). There’s more to it than meets the eye.

        • I’ll check it out a little later, maybe tonight.

        • I really like that site by the way. Good stuff

          • Rick Spurlock has taught me so much over the last year or so. He has a weekly
            newsletter that discusses the parasha. I just got done studying Leviticus and never
            had so much fun doing it!

          • Yes, my Dad just recently found this and showed it to me. Still digging.
            But really like so far. Fun is definitely the word. What is just hilarious to me
            is a few years ago…to refer to scripture or reading as fun….wouldve have been
            a major stretch, and now, its all one can do to pull me away!! lifes never been more

        • I looked up the study on Galatians but it’s pretty long, is there something in particular within it you would like to bring to my attention?

          I read the “About” page on the website, and briefly browsing through the Galatians study I saw a lot of the same things. One thing I am seeing is a desire to follow and obey God’s word. That is what we should all desire. This is what is referred to many times (not always) in the NT when we are told to obey His commandments. The difference is knowing the difference between an older understanding of a law, and understanding it’s deeper meaning, and fulfillment with Christ.

          Romans 10:1-4
          Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

          • I know it’s long, but well worth the study. Honestly Forest, it’ll be for your benefit. Give it a try, c’mon I dare ya!

  • This is painful to read sometimes, its like where do you even start? Forest….

    John 14:15 If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

    The ENTIRE chapter of Psalms 119

    Tanak/Old Testament

    Isaiah 8:20 Those who are against the Torah have no light in them
    Isaiah 42:4 The coastlands will wait for YHWH’s Torah
    Isaiah 42:21 YHWH will exalt the Torah and make it honorable
    Isaiah 51:7 The Torah mentioned to be on people’s hearts before Jer.31:33
    Jeremiah 31:33 The Torah will be on our hearts during the Millennial Kingdom
    Micah 4:2 Nations will come to learn the Torah in the Millennial Kingdom
    Zech.14:16-19 The Feast of Tabernacles will be kept in the Millennial Kingdom (Lev.23)

    Brit Hadasha/New Testament

    Matt.4:4-10 Yeshua used the Torah to rebuke the adversary (Deut 8:3; 6:16; 6:13)
    Matt.5:17-19 Those who teach against Torah will be least in the Kingdom of Heaven
    Matt.7:12 The Golden Rule (Midrash on Torah)
    Matt.9:20 Yeshua wore Tzitziot (Num.15:38)
    Matt.11:13 Yeshua used the Torah & the Prophets to prove John the Baptist valid
    Matt.12:5 Yeshua interpreted the Sabbath
    Matt.14:36 Yeshua wore Tzitziot (Num.15:38)
    Matt.22:36-40 Yeshua taught the greatest commandments from the Torah USING the Torah
    Matt.23:23 Yeshua emphasized the weightier matters of the Torah USING the Torah

    Luke 4:16 Yeshua’s custom was to attend Synagogue on the Sabbath day not Sunday
    Luke 16:17 It is easier for heaven & earth to pass away than for Torah to do so

    John 7:49 Yeshua said those who do not know Torah are accursed

    Acts 2 The disciples celebrated Shavuot (Pentecost)
    Acts 21:28 More false accusations saying that Paul taught against the Torah

    Rom.2:13 Those who do the Torah and not just hear it are considered justified
    Rom.3:31 Faith does not make void Torah
    Rom.6:15 Grace is not permission to sin

    Scripture is plain as plain can be about Torah. YHWH never ever changes. Never!! He gave His Word at Creation, and it has never changed. If you say that it did, then you are essentially saying there was something wrong with it in the first place. Torah absolutely sets you free to soar with eagles wings, and enriches even the smallest parts of life. Hes not done away with even an iota of His Perfection.

    • Though I see many verses here I would like to respond to, you will not listen. There is no need for me to respond to every verse you guys throw out, when you ignore the verses I mention.

      Yes, Jesus spoke to many, about them not keeping the law, because they were still under the law. He was using it as a schoolmaster, to show them they could not keep the law. Yes, the law would not pass away until all was fulfilled. Jesus did it, Jesus fulfilled it, he kept it perfectly. When we put our trust in Jesus as our savior, we are no longer under the law. Look again at the verses I mentioned above.

      We are not Israel, we are Christians (if your faith is in Christ alone). Why was Paul angry with Peter? Because he was teaching the Gentiles they needed to do the old laws. In John 19:30, Jesus said, “It is finished.” He paid the price. If you are in Him, you are free. If you say more is required than that, then you are saying His sacrifice was not sufficient.

      Let me ask you guys something, are we still required to sacrifice animals?

      • For every sentance you wrote that says we can not keep the law, there needs an additional 2 words added to the end……FOR SALVATION!!!! no one in space or time ever has been able to keep the law. It is impossible. The Torah is a measuring stick to show you that you HAVE to have Christ bc we can not do it alone. Before Jesus came, no one was justified by the law either. When Paul was preaching saying all that he said, he was preaching that you can not gain salvation from the law. Not to throw it away. You are mistaken, we ARE ISRAEL! We are grafted into the commonwealth. Israel is His People, are you His People?? No ones ignored the verses you mentioned, we are all responding accordingly. Even something simple as when He says, not one jot or tittle will pass until heaven and earth pass away….. has this happened??? No. People say they want to walk and takl and be like Jesus, yet do nothing he did. OR the way He did it. Why? When He said it is finished, He was saying the Fathers Perfect Plan was finished, meaning the Perfect sacrafice had been made, !!not!! Gods very Word and Instruction for us.

        When you come to a stoplight that is red, what do you do? You stop! You fulfill the law…right? Does that mean, that at the next light you truck on through? NO! You stop again, and fulfill it again, or you get the penalty, a ticket/jail or what have you. In this case, death. But He paid that penalty so we dont have to. He saved us. Perfect Plan, Perfect Man, Perfect Word, that needs NO reproff, or changing, or rearranging. Was Moses saved by the law or faith? The Father gave The Torah to Adam at Creation, then wrote it down at Sanai since the Israelites had been banished for 4 hundred some odd years. The giving of the Torah at Mt. Sanai, was NOT the first time this came into being. Though it was the first time being written down.

        • Then why are some of you saying we still need to obey those laws, that are said to have been a foreshadow? If they were foreshadowing something, and that something came to pass, what good are they now? Those laws were put in place so that when that thing came to pass, it would be known, or better understood. So those laws would now no longer be necessary, unless we are told to continue with them.

          The thing is that some of you are saying we need to continue to follow the OT laws in the same way they followed them in the OT, even when the NT shows otherwise. Take for instance the eating of ham which started this whole discussion. I showed from scripture above that it was a foreshadow. Here is some more scripture to go along with it. Tell me after reading it if we are allowed to eat ham or not. Here Paul is telling Timothy that in the latter times men will depart from the faith, and will give heed to false doctrines such as forbidding to marry, and abstaining from meats, and then he continues…

          1 Timothy 4:3-5
          Forbidding to marry, [and commanding] to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God [is] good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

          • You are right! It was all a foreshadow, so they WOULD know when it came to pass, that does not do away with it. It only completes His Plan of salvation. The same way it made them a set apart and peculiar people then, the same way it does now, when you arent celebrating man made holidays, and eating clean and everything else then you are set apart.

            Like Zac has argued time and time again…IF is a huge word, it says !! IF !! it is to be recieved with thanksgiving…for it is SANCTIFIED by the WORD of God.

            What is sanctified by the Word of God? Only that which is food and He calls food.

            Again we are back to the question ..does He change? From Creation forth, the answer is no. And the Torah is His Word. He can not change it.

  • Even though she has listed a lot of scriptures, you need to understand that God doesn’t change. Man puts teachings in place to make us THINK He does, but He doesn’t.

    We need to reconcile the scriptures YOU gave with the scriptures SHE gave. They are all valid … but they all need to agree, otherwise the bible makes no sense.

    But it DOES make sense! Man’s teaching and bias can twist the Word, we’ve seen this in all of the teaching that has been passed down. But we CAN rest in the fact that God doesn’t change.


    To answer your question about sacrificing animals. There has been a teaching that, basically, every time an Israelite sinned, he had to kill a cow. This isn’t the truth. If someone wanted to appear before the raw Shikinah presence of God in worship, they needed a “covering” so that the Presence of God wouldn’t kill them (like Nadab and Abihu). The animal sacrifice was to provide that covering, but it didn’t take away the sin of the worshipper. To my understanding, the only time during the year sin was atoned for was the Yom Kippur sacrifice, and that was offered by the High Priest.

    We’re actually obeying the Torah by NOT sacrificing animals. Scripturally, a sacrifice could be offered at the temple. What happens when the 3rd temple is built? Well, if God’s raw presence is there, and we want to appear before the raw power of the Creator, we better get ourselves a cow!

    • Jesus was the last necessary sacrifice. The veil was torn. His blood took care of it all. Sacrificing another animal would be blasphemous, and would be saying to Jesus, “Your sacrifice was not sufficient.”

      • If Jesus was the last sacrifice, why did Paul participate in taking a Nazirite vow. A Nazirite Acts 21 … part of the purification process was sacrificing an animal. (See Numbers 6) Also, what’s more, Paul continually saying that he did not, in any way, violate the Law his entire time of ministry. No matter what accusations they brought against him, they couldn’t prove it. It’s funny how modern-day church people will accuse him of the same things … that he taught against the Law, but you can’t prove it.

        I know this is different than what you’ve been taught, I was raised in church too. But this adds up … the other does not.

      • Why was Jesus a sacrifice? Where does that pattern come from? Why did He give His life for our sins? You cannot understand even the why of His death unless you KNOW about sacrifices, which comes from the “Old” testament. He was a sin offering, as is described in Leviticus, and even the way the crucifixion is carried out and how He was killed outside the camp, why they brought Him down when Joseph claimed the body, ALL of those details come from Torah; Leviticus; the Old Testament. If you look only at the “New” testament you will be ignorant of the full purpose of Yahwah. There is nothing new under the sun. Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and to-day, yea and for ever. Jesus is the Word, and the Bible starts with the Word.

        The veil was torn. Which veil? Where? What was the significance of the veil? You must read and know the Torah to know why the veil was even mentioned, and what that veil tearing really means.

        The church has been propagating the “New” testament beliefs for YEARS without understanding or studying the language, habits, and meanings of the Word, which has a Hebrew basis, and so trying to apply the English language understanding to this active, symbolic, Hebraic Word, you simply cannot understand it completely.

        The reason you see us quoting similar scripture is because we have been studying the Word from a Hebraic point of view, and so when you quote something like Romans 1-4, and it talks about establishing your own righteousness, that means the Talmudic and Rabbinical laws that the Jews applied to their lives, instead of keeping the laws that Yah had given them. Jesus rebukes the Pharisees for having a law about washing hands, when they don’t even keep the honor thy father and mother commandment of Yah in Matthew 15:2-4. It does not mean Jesus did away with the Law.

  • After reading all the posts, it’s plain that Forest is still thinking in the “salvation” or “justification” box. Yes, the law cannot justify you, or save you. Yeshua’s offering (sin offering) on the cross (a living example of the animal sacrifices the priests made all the time in the Temple) is what saves us, we couldn’t be saved without Him. We would have been condemned to death by our sins.

    Forest, do you understand what sin is? Do a study on sin. Sin is breaking the law. Yah gave us the law to set us apart from the pagans, to make us a peculiar people. Without the law, we would be acting just like the pagans (hmm, look at the modern church). Look at Leviticus, look at some of the laws, like not sleeping with your sister in law, and realize that behavior was considered normal in other cultures, but Yah said not to do it. Without the law, we act just like non believers. Then look in the New Testament, Act 10:14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. Peter, who you claim set us free to eat and act as we will, kept Torah, he NEVER ate unclean. He knew the law of Yah, and kept it, even after Yeshua died. Now, ask yourself why? Because Yeshua fulfilled (kept perfectly) the law? Or because now the death sentence was lifted, we are free to keep the law in love and truth, not under a death penalty.


    • Yes, I can see that you all are claiming that we are saved by Jesus, and not by keeping the law. God did not have a problem with the Jews who became Christians to continue with some of their practices. I agree, many of the laws were to set them apart from the pagan world, to be a witness to the world. We are just not required to follow all of the laws, in the same way they were followed in the OT.

  • Forest, anytime you see anything in Romans or Galatians that SEEMS to say that the Law is done away with, or FULFILLED or completed, Understand that what you are reading has ONLY two possibilities of correct context.

    1. Its talking about the PUNISHMENT of the Law being done away with or the Curse of the Law being done away with, not the Law itself, or

    2. Its talking about the Traditions and Doctrines of MEN, the taking away of MAN’s made up doctrines. Such as washing of hands or circumcision being required FOR salvation. None of that is in the LAW. Circumcision has always been about the HEART first and the flesh second…ALWAYS!

    The LAW, or TORAH, GOD’S doctrine is still valid. All of it.
    We can’t participate in all of it right now. There is no temple, no Levitical priesthood. Yeshua is right now our HIGH PRIEST but there will be a Levitical Priesthood again one day. Isa.66:21

  • Gentiles were not called to become Hebrews. But they have both been called to become Christians.

    I’d like to recommend you all listen to this sermon or study. It’s about 55 minutes and covers a lot of the topics we have been discussing here. http://www.swordandtrowel.org/Sermons.aspx?code=090-069-PJ

    • Forest, same verses for you, and for Chantel. We are grafted into Israel, by our beliefs, our faith, just as Abraham was righteous because of his faith and obedience.
      Rom 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and thou, being a wild olive, wast grafted in among them, and didst become partaker with them of the root of the fatness of the olive tree;
      Rom 11:18 glory not over the branches: but if thou gloriest, it is not thou that bearest the root, but the root thee.
      Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, Branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
      Rom 11:20 Well; by their unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by thy faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
      Rom 11:21 for if God spared not the natural branches, neither will he spare thee.
      Rom 11:22 Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them that fell, severity; but toward thee, God’s goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
      Rom 11:23 And they also, if they continue not in their unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
      Rom 11:24 For if thou wast cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree, and wast grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree; how much more shall these, which are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
      Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in;

  • I keep reading about “GENTILES” in the above post, YET I CANNOT find a SINGLE SCRIPTURE stating a COVENANT was CUT with GENTILES.. I have found SCRIPTURE about a NEW COVENANT with JUDAH and ISRAEL. I also read about something called GRAFTED IN to the COMMONWEALTH of ISRAEL, making ONE part of ISRAEL…. If ONE is NOT part of ISRAEL what GATE will they USE?

    Jeremiah 31:31
    31 “ Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,

    Hebrews 8:8
    8 For finding fault with them, He says,
    “ Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
    [a]When I will effect a new covenant
    With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;

    Ephesians 2:12
    12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, [a] excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

    Revelation 21:12
    12 [a]It had a great and high wall, [b] with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels; and names were written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel.

    • Chantel, here is how we are grafted into Israel
      Rom 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and thou, being a wild olive, wast grafted in among them, and didst become partaker with them of the root of the fatness of the olive tree;
      Rom 11:18 glory not over the branches: but if thou gloriest, it is not thou that bearest the root, but the root thee.
      Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, Branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
      Rom 11:20 Well; by their unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by thy faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
      Rom 11:21 for if God spared not the natural branches, neither will he spare thee.
      Rom 11:22 Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them that fell, severity; but toward thee, God’s goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
      Rom 11:23 And they also, if they continue not in their unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
      Rom 11:24 For if thou wast cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree, and wast grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree; how much more shall these, which are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
      Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in;

      • If Im not mistaken, I think Chantel was making the point that we have to be grafted in as
        Part of Israel to be part of the covenant. Meaning we are Israel. I got the notion she understood,
        But I may have read wrong.

  • 1) Colossians 2:16-23, is Paul’s refutation of a group of ascetics in Colosse that were judging the Colosse followers of Yeshua for partaking in and enjoying the feasts of Yahweh, with the attendant “food and drink.” It has nothing to do with unclean animals.

    2) The Feasts of Yahweh are a “SHADOW OF THINGS TO COME,” or that are coming, future tense. This was after Yeshua was crucified, died, rose from death, and ascended back to the Father, where He serves as our Perfect High Priest, making intercession for us to the Father.

    3) Do not confuse “elemental spirits of the world,” or the “traditions of men,” with Father’s Torah, His instructions for us, for our benefit. Father’s Torah is a lamp to our feet, its is life, it is freedom! We live Torah to walk in obedience, to demonstrate our love for Him, to walk in goods deeds He has prepared for us to walk in!

    4) I was immersed up to my neck in the Constantinian, anti-TORAH mindset for years, being a Preaching and Evangelism major at Central Bible College in Springfield, MO. I know well the mindset you are coming from, however you are going to have to renew your MIND, just as Paul admonished us, just as I have myself!

    5) People are called to follow Messiah, to follow the way of Messiah, which is Torah observant/pursuant living. Nowhere are we called to be Christians. When you follow Messiah, you follow the Father, and you become part of His people, Israel!

    Love and Shalom!
    Ephesians 2:1-10, ESV
    “We are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus (Messiah Yeshua) for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.”

    • Awesome my brother

  • O my …Chantel, Kyle…beautifully said!! You really just laid that out with such finesse. Thank you.

  • Lots of good discussion going on here. I was traveling while most of it was going on so I couldn’t respond other than reading it. I hope many of the questions Forest had have been answered and he can understand that the New Testament isn’t New..its just True!


    • I didn’t have any questions. I just noticed a raising of the first five books above Christ, so I thought I should say something.

      • Forest, the first five books IS CHRIST! They were the WORD of the Father made Flesh.

        The Way the Truth and the LIFE. The Father cannot say the Way the Truth and LIFE is one thing and then switch it over to something else later. He does not change.

        Erase your seminary brainwash and start over, brother.

        Love ya.

        • Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me.
          Why did Yeshua use this phrase? What are the Way, the Truth and the Life? In our English minds, the way would be the literal way, like a path or direction. The truth would be fact; nothing false, and the Life, would be our life; this life. But there is a deeper context. The Way was the name of the curtain to the Tabernacle, where people entered, if they were clean; undefiled by death or unclean animals or diseases, to offer sacrifices to Yahwah, where they gave their offering to the Priests. The brass altar for burnt offerings was here, and the basin where the Priests washed their hands. The Truth was the curtain to the second level in the Tabernacle, where only the Priests could go, where the table of shewbread and the candlestand and the altar for burning incense was. The Life was the final curtain, to the Holy of Holies, where only the High Priest could go, only once a year, after he was washed and purified and properly dressed. Inside the Holy of Holies was the Ark of the Covenant and the Mercy Seat, where Yahwah’s presence resided. Coming into the Holy of Holies if you were not the High Priest meant instant death. Coming in even for the High Priest if he did not approach in a holy, clean state and on the appointed day, meant death.
          Yeshua made the death penalty gone, made approaching the Father on a personal basis possible. You must come through Yeshua to reach the Father. He became the High Priest and also the sacrifice.

          If you do not study and know the Old Testament, you lose depth and meaning of scripture, you cannot just rest in the New Testament if you want to know the fulness of Yeshua and Yahwah. Mat 11:27 All things have been delivered unto me of my Father: and no one knoweth the Son, save the Father; neither doth any know the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son willeth to reveal him.

  • We have been trained to start reading in the New Testament first (usually the gospels), before even considering the Torah. Even common logic defies this. The Torah is His introduction to His chosen people, Israel. He (more or less) is saying “Hi! I’m God … this is what I’m all about!”

    From that point on, God doesn’t change. All subsequent doctrines will support, rather than detract from the Torah.

    Within the Torah, there are safeguards to make sure that one does not add to, or take away from what was written. That’s not to say that all the other books are not God’s infallible Word … because they ARE infallible. But the translation, interpretation and doctrine arising from them IS “fallible”.

    Most of the people who the Church considers “church fathers” were Hellenistic anti-semite bigots (including Martin Luther). And so much of our theology is taken from their writings, rather than considering the Jewish interpretations of the Word.

    OT vs. NT, Grace vs. Law … these doctrines you can toss out the window. The bible really does add up, and you don’t need to hyper-spiritualize it to understand it.

    Man, I love it when a Plan comes together!

  • This might be a little off from how you guys are trying to explain this, but Ill say it anyway. I have never disagreed that Y’shua is His Word made flesh, but my AhHA!! moment was when I was watching that teaching by Brad Scott called “In my flesh I see God” It is along the same lines as his agro-bio linguistics, but it goes into incredible detail of even our DNA structure and how it literally actually is made up of His WORD, the Aleph Beit. At that moment I realized yes Yeshua was flesh and literal and was Gods Word brought to life………. but the very molecules that made Him up were …His Word. I know this is really redundant, but this was big for me, and John 1:1 was so clear. Anyway, its long, but it was worth watching, more than once. I would recommend it to Forest!!!! You can find it on Youtube as well.


  • The Torah has never been and will never be the way a person is saved. All too many Christians stumble at this point. Although, they may have good intentions, and are trying very hard to be a good witness, they are missing the mark when it comes to this point. Paul expresses this point very well in Galatians 3; Paul states, “[Is] the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law” (Gal 3:21 KJV). Paul also taught that by our faith we establish the law, we do not nullify, abrogate, or allegorize it as is commonly taught in today’s Christianity see (Romans 3:31 NIV). So in other words our faith does not give us a right to pick and choose what laws we will keep and what laws we will abrogate; for example homosexuality, and the dietary laws. There is also the matter of historical context; all too many people completely overlook the fact that all believers in Messiah were still considered to be a sect of Judaism, until well after Paul had been put to death in Rome. Paul never taught against the Law, and anyone who says that he did has completely missed his message. One example of missing what Paul was trying to convey has already been mentioned earlier in this blog. Colossians 2 is perhaps the best written evidence that we have from the apostolic scriptures that Paul was teaching the Torah to the Colossians, to both Jew and Gentile. Any way you look at this Paul was not telling them that they could eat what they want, because these commandments and ordinances were mere shadows of Christ. He was consistently teaching all who claim to be in Christ to walk as Christ himself walked, see (1 John 2:6). Everyone knows that Yeshua kept the commandments of God, see (John 15:10); all too often you will hear the cliché, “Jesus keep the law, so we don’t have to”, but that is not at all what he scriptures teach us, is it? Consider what Paul said, “Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ” (1 Corinthians 11:1 NIV). For this reason alone we should never ever think for a minute that Yeshua came to walk perfectly, so we would not have to. No, No, he came and took our punishment for not keeping God’s holy Torah. Is this how a person shows his or her gratitude for a full pardon, by being a proverbial pig returning to its mire, after it has been cleaned up; or should we show that we love God and keep his commandments, because they are not grievous (1 John 5:3). Furthermore, the entire New Testament attests to the fact that all of the apostles kept the commandments of God while the Messiah was on earth and after Messiah ascended, this should serve as an example for us all.


  • Forest,

    Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the LAW, or the PROPHETS: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
    Matthew 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the LAW and the PROPHETS.

    Moses was a prophet.
    Hosea 12:13 And by a prophet the Lord brought Israel out of Egypt, and by a prophet was he preserved.

    We are NOT to place the law before the Most High nor does the law alone save us, but the law and the prophets were NOT done away with. The “law” that we have been set free from is the law of sin and death (Romans 8:2). The law of sin and death was the condemnation, remembrance of our sins, and required the shedding of blood (as seen in Hebrews 10) due to the transgressing of the law. The law has been placed in our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33, Hebrews 8:10) and therefore we are led to follow his law out of obedience and not sacrifice (1 Samuel 15:22).

    The two greatest commandments are “Thou shalt love the YHWH thy Elohim with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind” and “Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 22)

    Remember all the LAW and the PROPHETS hang on these two laws. Look at what Romans 13:9-11 says:

    9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
    11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

    The law was not done away with, but instead it was placed in our hearts. The law and the prophets were not destroyed, but instead fulfilled through LOVE. The commandments are SUMMED up with the two greatest commandments mentioned above. So if you want to know what it is to LOVE the Elohim with ALL your HEART, SOUL, and MIND and if you want to know how to LOVE your neighbor as yourself look to the Torah, search through the law and the prophets, and seek guidance from the Holy Spirit.

  • I just skim read through a lot of this because there is so much, but I wanted to add a point from both camps (as I always seem to find myself in the middle).

    Forest, note that Colossians 2:16-17 says that the feast days ARE a shadow of things TO COME, not WERE a shadows of things that ALREADY HAPPENED. All things have not yet been fulfilled, and even the spring feast days that Christ fulfilled have not yet had their complete fulfilment in us, so truly all things stand ready to completed with His return. They still point us in that direction.

    I do agree with you though Forest that many in the Hebrew Roots movement esteem (or seem to esteem) the Torah on the same level of Christ. They need to realise that the Torah does not love them, that it did not die for them, that without Christ it would be a curse to them. But through Christ’s atonement we are converted by the law, it still stands as a guide to righteousness.

    Let me end this post with the following:

    Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. (Psalm 119:160)

  • Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the LAW, or the PROPHETS: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
    -Another word for “fulfill” is complete. Many of the laws have come to completion with Christ. That goes along with the whole foreshadow thing. And if you want to continue using the stoplight analogy, I’m game. Actually the red light would not be the foreshadow that you need to stop. The yellow light would be the foreshadow of the red stop light. But once the red light comes on, you no longer need the yellow light, because what it was a sign of has come, so the yellow light turns off. Therefore, you are no longer under the yellow light, but you are now under the red light.

    One thing that I have noticed many of you doing, is with any scripture that has the word “law” or “word” in it, you automatically say that it means Torah. That is not always the case. For example in a verse I gave earlier…

    1 Timothy 4:3-5
    Forbidding to marry, [and commanding] to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God [is] good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

    This verse clearly says “every creature is of God is good, and nothing to be refused”. It does not say, only certain animals according to the Torah. Also, “for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer”. “Word” in this verse is not the Torah, it is “logos”. So if we say it’s sanctified by the word of God (scripture), this verse among others is showing us the truth. That those of us who are in Christ (red light), are no longer under the old laws (yellow light). If we are in Him, then we know the truth. We are set free by the Truth. Make sure your faith is in Him, not in the Torah.

    Also, most of you are saying that God doesn’t change and neither does his word, and that is why we are to continue in all of the OT laws. I would agree that He does not change, but if He chooses to implement a law, in order to point the entire human race to Christ, and then do away with that law once Christ’s saving work is done, it does not mean He has changed. It just means he implemented a law that was always meant to be temporary.

    By the way, I didn’t come here to attack anyone, so if I’ve tried correcting anyone, don’t take it personal. Just be sure you are not practicing the OT laws as part of your salvation. That’s all I’m asking.

    • So Yeshua made pig clean? And that is what the letter to Timothy says? I don’t remember Pork being sanctified by the Word of God. But if you are right that means God told us for about 4000 years that Pork is not clean then after Christ died its clean but in his return it is clear that he will be upset at those eating Pork? Wow now I’m confused 😛

      Isaiah 66: 15

      For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. 16 For by fire and by his sword will the Lord plead with all flesh: and the slain of the Lord shall be many. 17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine’s flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the Lord.

      Seems like your calling God the author of confusion.

    • Forest: “Just be sure you are not practicing the OT laws as part of your salvation. That’s all I’m asking.”

      Forest, it is YOU who have placed the idea on US that we think we’re keeping the Torah unto salvation. I believe I can speak for everyone here, (after having read a lot of the comments), that we understand that the Torah was NEVER given FOR salvation. You’re accusing us of something WE don’t even believe, and I think I know why you do so. You do so because I really believe you are being convicted and you are fighting against it.

      The Torah was never given FOR salvation, nor will it ever BE utilized FOR salvation. Instead, it is kept from a heart of obedience AFTER receiving salvation, which can obviously ONLY come from our Messiah Yeshua (“Jesus”).

      • Vic, well said, concise!

  • Forest, “Fulfill” or “pleroo” in the greek means to complete as an ‘example’. You are quick to quote Matthew 5:17 but read 18 and 19. Again this is an example of picking and choosing verses.

    The reason we switch out “LAW” with “TORAH” is because that is what it says in the Hebrew. Law = towrah or (תּוֹרָה).

    When you see “WORD” in 1 Timothy, the ONLY WORD they had back then was the Torah and the writings of the prophets. When the bereans searched the scriptures to see if what Paul was saying was true, they searched the Torah and the prophets. The only place you will find what is to be considered “FOOD” is what is written in the TORAH. All those animals are good and set-apart (sanctified).

    I don’t think you have attacked anyone. We are all learning. I was exactly in your shoes about 2 years ago. The more I learned, the more I realized that Jesus/Yeshua was the perfect example in which we are all to follow. His grace comes into play when we fall short.

    1 John 2:6
    He that saith he abideth in him ought HIMSELF ALSO so to walk, even as he walked.

  • Is 66:15-17 mentioned above… These verses, speaking of those who eat swine’s flesh being consumed, is not speaking of believers. It is speaking of unbelieving Hebrews who are disobeying the OT laws (eating pork, communicating with the dead, etc). If you read in the prior chapter, mainly 65:1-5 you can see more clearly who it is referring to.

    I only mentioned Matthew 5:17 because a couple posts before that, Erica was referring to this verse. I’m not sure where you are getting that fulfill or “pleroo” means to complete as an “example”. Here’s the definition of pleroo.
    1) to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full
    a) to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally
    a1) I abound, I am liberally supplied
    2) to render full, i.e. to complete
    a) to fill to the top: so that nothing shall be wanting to full measure, fill to the brim
    b) to consummate: a number
    b1) to make complete in every particular, to render perfect
    b2) to carry through to the end, to accomplish, carry out, (some undertaking)
    c) to carry into effect, bring to realisation, realise
    c1) of matters of duty: to perform, execute
    c2) of sayings, promises, prophecies, to bring to pass, ratify, accomplish
    c3) to fulfil, i.e. to cause God’s will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God’s promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment

    Actually, by saying that Christ’s fulfillment was just an example of the true meaning of the Law and the Prophets, then you are holding the Law and the Prophets above Christ. Christ does not point to them, they point to Christ. Other verses with the word pleroo make no sense unless it means complete completion. A few examples from Matthew – 1:22, 2:15, 13:35, 13:48, 23:32.

    Switching LAW (or “word”) with TORAH because that’s what it says in Hebrew. Ok, but the NT is in Greek, not Hebrew. (Which was why you gave the Greek version of the word “fulfill”.) And no, “law” and “word” are not “Torah” every time. I just showed you in 1 Tim 4:3-5 that it was not. You can’t always assume these words mean Torah.

    The bereans did search the scriptures to see if what Paul said was true. That is correct. But the Torah was not the only scriptures, there are more than five books that are considered scripture. Paul explained to them how Christ fulfilled the law. They didn’t just take his word for it, they checked the scriptures, and it lined up with what Paul was teaching them.

    Again, 1 Tim 4:3-5. I hate to keep bringing the verse up, but you keep ignoring what it says. It says every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, for it is sanctified by the word (logos) of God. In verse 1:1 of John, he refers to Jesus as the Word (logos). ….Now, all meat is sanctified by Christ. God created all animals, therefore they are intrinsically good. God only put temporary dietary restrictions on which meats were clean for the Hebrews.

    Ok, concerning the meat issue. As far as I can tell, everyone here says that God does not change, therefore the dietary laws are still in effect. Then what about the fact that starting with Adam, man was not allowed to eat meat at all?

    Gen 9:2-4
    And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth [upon] the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered. Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things. But flesh with the life thereof, [which is] the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

    It was not until Gen 9:3 that man was allowed to eat meat. And what restrictions did God give man at that time? They could eat all meats, but only that they may not eat flesh which still has blood in it. Did God change? No, but his restrictions, or law changed. It changed again with the Hebrews, He gave them new restrictions, or a new law concerning what they were allowed to eat.

  • Forest, you keep ignoring the 18 and 19th verse of Matthew 5.

    Oh and no, Noah could not eat all animals. Are you saying he could eat poison tree frogs? God commanded Noah to take on 7 pair of every CLEAN animal and a pair of every unclean animal. If he got off the ark and ate pork chops, there wouldn’t have been any pigs around today because there was only one pair!

    You are misinterpreting what He calls FOOD.

    Also, God did not prior to Genesis 7 say don’t eat meat and then change His mind and say ok, now you can eat meat. It was never brought up until after the flood. He did not change his mind.

    Malachi 3:6

    What part of that verse are you having problems with specifically?

  • Yes, the word “LAW” in the Old Testament is not always “TORAH”. For example, when you use it as “MOTHER IN LAW” (Exd 18:15)

    However, in Psalms 19:7: The “LAW” of the LORD [is] perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD [is] sure, making wise the simple.

    GUESS which Hebrew word is used there?

    In Psalms 119, the largest chapter in ALL THE BIBLE, the word LAW is used NUMEROUS times…GUESS which Hebrew word is used EVERY TIME?

  • Wow, seriously. You keep reading the scripture, then you say it means something else.

    Yes, Noah could eat all the animals, it says right there that he could. Gen 9:3 – “Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.”

    Now tell me that he was not allowed to eat all animals. EVERY MOVING THING THAT LIVETH. Am I to believe that God actually meant, only some moving animals that liveth? And yes, Noah could have eaten a poison tree frog if he wanted to. It would not be wise to do so. But it would not be a sin because God did not say he could not eat it. And no, they did not eat meat before the end of the flood. If they were already eating meat, why would God need to tell them that they could eat meat? It wouldn’t make sense. And God didn’t tell Noah to go eat all those animals right then and there, that’s ridiculous to even think that. If that’s what he meant, then they would have also ran out of the clean animals, especially if they were only allowed to eat the clean ones. Then why did they bring 7 of the clean animals onto the ship? Not for food, but because they were for sacrifices. We do see before the flood that sacrifices were already being performed. We see no where in scripture where they were eating meat before the flood. Now granted, some people may have been eating meat before the flood. But God had not yet allowed it. (Those people would have been among those who drowned, because they were doing as they pleased, without following God’s instruction.) God had already given them permission to eat from trees, and as you see in the verses below, starting with Adam and Eve, he gives them the crops of the field to eat. It’s not until after the flood God gives them meat to eat.

    Gen 3:18,19
    Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return.

    In the beginning of all these posts I asked if we should still be sacrificing animals. Someone said no, because we do not have the temple. Yeah, same argument here. They were sacrificing animals before the flood… and they did not have the temple either. You might say that is because God had not yet instructed them to do so in the temple. If you say that, then according to what you have been telling me all along, you are then saying God changed. See, that’s what I’m saying. God can change the way He has us do something, without He Himself changing.

    No, I’m not having any problems with Malachi 3:6. I agree He does not change. I’ve explained how he can change the way to implements certain things, without He Himself changing. What part of it are you having trouble understanding?

    “Yes, the word “LAW” in the Old Testament is not always “TORAH”. For example, when you use it as “MOTHER IN LAW” (Exd 18:15)” — lol, really, that made me laugh.

    Psalms 19:7 – “Guess which word is used there.” – I’m going to guess “Torah”. Am I right?
    Psalms 119 – I’m also going to go with “torah” here as well.
    Just because we use the word “law” for the word torah in our English bibles, doesn’t mean it’s referring to all of the OT laws. Torah, or Instruction, is what is used here. Take Psalms 19:7 and 8. The law of the LORD, the testimony of the LORD, the precepts of the LORD, the commandment of the LORD. These are all speaking of the word of God. We delight in God’s word, in His instructions, in His torah, in the scriptures. All speaking of the same thing. It’s used the same way in Ps 119.

    Ok, now for Matt 5:17-19. Read it in context. You need to read Matthew chapters 5-7. What is Jesus talking about the whole time? He’s talking about morals, about how we conduct ourselves, how we treat others, about the moral laws – God’s standard. (I know they are never specifically called moral laws in scripture, but these laws all refer to morality.) The character and nature of God that we are to desire to exhibit. Then in Matt 7:12, after speaking of all these ethical principles, He equates them to the law and the prophets. So he starts off by saying in 5:17-19 that He is not destroying the law, and that it will never pass. What will never pass? Answered in Matt 7:12, God’s moral standard, because He does not change!

    There is a difference between ceremonial laws and moral laws. Moral laws cannot change (God’s character and nature). Ceremonial laws can be changed by God, because they are being used by God for His purposes, for whatever time period He needs to use them for, in order to accomplish His purpose.

    Don’t be so quick to respond and defend. Please just take a little time to ponder what I have presented thus far. Not just what I have said, but does it line up with scripture. Forget what others have told you, forget what I’ve told you, forget trying to make it say what you want to believe. Just read the scripture and see which argument lines up and which doesn’t. Don’t take a single verse and base everything on that. The whole Bible must be considered.

  • I don’t need to ponder these things, I’ve already done so for months and months. I was like you and NOBODY was going to tell me I couldn’t eat my bacon. After intense study of the arguments, I realized my lust of the flesh (MY STOMACH) and I repented of my sin. SIN IS TRANSGRESSION OF THE LAW. His Law says don’t eat that which is an abomination. Simple.

    Where does it say in Genesis that God taught Noah which animals are clean and unclean? It doesn’t. So you have to assume that somewhere along the line, God told Noah what is clean and unclean. Then in Gen. 9:3 you see God say EVERY LIVING THING but he is only referring to those that he has ALREADY stated are the clean animals.

    You have this god who changes his mind on a whim. That is not my God.

    Matthew 5:17-19
    There is no such thing as moral laws and ceremonial laws. That is an invention of modern pointy headed theologians faced with the contradiction of the Torah and their NT theology of lawlessness.

    ONE LAW: It never gets separated into different groups for different people.

    “There is to be ONE LAW and one ordinance for you and for the alien who sojourns with you.”

    Ex. 12:49
    “The SAME TORAH shall apply to the native as to the stranger who sojourns among you.”

    You can keep rationalizing your lawlessness if you want Forest, its not me who you are offending. Luckily, both you and I have GRACE.

  • “Then in Gen. 9:3 you see God say EVERY LIVING THING but he is only referring to those that he has ALREADY stated are the clean animals.”
    – And I’m the one who has presented a God of confusion?

    We know sacrifices were taking place before the flood, example – Cain and Abel. We have no example of meat eating before the flood in the bible. So I’m sorry, but no, you’re claim that the above verse means the opposite of what it says is wrong.

    I continually back up what I have claimed with scripture, and explanation. But then you just say I’m wrong. And when I explain the scripture mentioned by everyone else which I have continually done, I do so with other scripture. And then you ignore what I’ve said, or you just say I’m wrong. You continue to back up your claims by “just knowing”.

    Num 15:16 & Ex 12:49 – Both are speaking to the Hebrews and the non Hebrews that sojourned with them. You have Christians all over the place today that are not sojourning with the Hebrews.

    • Yep, your right. Pork is ok to eat in Genesis. Bad to eat in Leviticus. Good to eat in the Gospels. Bad to eat in Isaiah. Yep, I have the god of confusion.

      Just sayin, but every time pig or swine is mentioned in the Bible, its used in a negative context. Every time. But go ahead and keep eating it.

    • I qoute from Joyfully Growing in Torah’s blog regarding this matter:

      “Are we really expected to believe that “every moving thing” in this verse literally means “you can eat anything that moves”? Taken to its logical conclusion, this would include poisonous tree frogs, dung beetles, and even other humans. Surely this is not what God meant. Let’s look at the Hebrew for clarification.

      John H. Walton, a Christian Hebrew scholar, makes some very careful observations that we need to pay close attention to:

      “The noun (remeś) and the associated verb (rmś) each occur seventeen times in the Old Testament, ten times each in Genesis 1-9. This word group is distinct from both the wild (predatory) beasts and domesticated flocks and herds. Neither verb nor noun is ever used to refer to larger wild animals or to domesticated animals. In no place is remeś a catch-all category for all creatures. It is one category of creature only. The division of the Hebrew terms used up to this point in Genesis reflects the nature of the animal…” (John H. Walton’s, The NIV Application Commentary: Genesis (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 2001), pp 341-342.)

      As you can see, even mainstream scholars agree that Noah could not literally eat everything that moves. “

      • Every moving thing… this doesn’t mean God is telling them to go and eat everything, just that He is not putting a restriction on which ones can and can’t be eaten. The only restriction God gives them is in verse 9:4, concerning not eating flesh with blood in it.

        I was looking at this yesterday. Remes in most cases is used within a list of types of animals, and usually translated as creeping animals (things). But in Psalms 104:25 we see remes is also used in reference to sea animals, both small and great beasts of the sea. In Gen 9:2. “Ramas” is used where in other similar lists of animals, remes is used.

        In 9:2 God gives a more exhaustive list of animals to show that He is talking about all animals. He says He is delivering all animals into the hands of humans. And as soon as He says that, He continues in 9:3 with “every moving thing shall be meat for you”. Don’t think of them as separate verses, because they go together, they weren’t spoken as separate statements. Remes is used here to represent that entire list in 9:2. He goes on still to say, He is giving them all animals to eat, just like He gave them all green herbs to eat (Gen 1:29,30). Notice in Gen 1:29,30 when God is stating what may be eaten, both humans and animals were only allowed to eat plants. There were no restrictions on the “herbs”, just like He was not putting a restriction on meats.

        • Forest, so why would the Father not put restrictions on meats in Genesis, then put restrictions on animals and fish in Leviticus, then take those away in the NT, then in the millenium put the restrictions back?

          It makes no sense. But you refuse to think that maybe you are making a mistake in your thinking…after all, your seminary training CAN’t be wrong.

          You’re arguement has no standing.

          • The dietary restrictions were to set the Hebrews apart from the rest of the world. God also used them as a foreshadow as I explained earlier from the NT. He took them away in the NT because the purpose of the restriction had been accomplished. In the millennium, from my understanding, the earth will be restored to what it was like in the garden. And in the garden (Gen 1:29,30), man was not permitted to eat meat.

            I don’t have seminary training, I’m just going on what the bible says.

          • Forest, YOU’RE STILL SUPPOSED TO BE SET APART FROM THE REST OF THE WORLD! Instead, today you have much of Christianity acting like the rest of the world and taking part in worldly sins…the whole point of the original blog post.

            LORD LORD –

            “Depart from me, YOU WHO WORK LAWLESSNESS, I never knew you” (Torahlessness).

          • A true Christian would not continue in worldly sin. Just because many people call themselves one doesn’t mean they really are.

        • LOL….you just said that the only restriction he gives is don’t drink the blood. This restriction is the same ALL THROUGHOUT the Torah. You can see he is consistent with the blood…but you fail to see the consistency with the clean and unclean….probably as you are eating your pepperoni pizza. You don’t see it because you don’t want to see it. You are controlled by the lust of your stomach.

          • yeah, the only restriction was the blood restriction. ?? Gen 9:4

  • Thats the thing, even though it seems like He says its ok, we have to take the foundation of what He says, and apply it to what seems like contradiction so we can understand. Going BACK to the beginning every time we get confused. Forest, when you are reading the NT, its already under the assumption that you have read the front of the book. So you should understand the places it seems to contradict it. Not studying from back to front. Wouldnt common sense tell us doing something backwards is going to give us backward results……

    • April, I wished this blog had a “Like” function (like FB) … because what you just said is deserving of MANY “Likes”!

    • I get your point, but the NT is full of explanations. Both before and after Jesus died, he was continuously explaining, and giving a fuller knowledge of the OT. So now, with the NT, we are blessed with having fuller depth into God’s word. We shouldn’t read just the OT. We shouldn’t read just the NT either. They complement each other.

      Say you are reading a murder mystery novel that has ten chapters. If you were to read the last chapter first, and find out that the murderer was the butler, you could then go back and start from the beginning. You would then see the clues throughout the book and see how and why they point to the butler, and not to the banker.

      If you still hold your position, then why did Jesus (among others), waste their time explaining the OT? Why were people so enthralled with Jesus’s teachings? Because the true meaning behind many of the OT laws could not have been fully known by man until after they had been explained. If nothing else, they knew He was a true prophet of God, there was no other explanation for His understanding of the scripture.

  • Here you go Forest, I made this video for you. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqmsVeAdKE0

    • I don’t have a lust in my stomach. I could stop eating pork today if God told me to, it wouldn’t bother me any, it’s only meat.

      I’ve only been talking about pork because that is what the original post was talking about. Want to switch the topic? Then answer my question from a few days ago which everyone ignored. Why are no sacrifices being made today? You can’t say because there is no temple, because Cain and Abel, Noah, etc didn’t have a temple either. No one answered me because they would have to admit that God changes. But that’s the point I’m trying to make, God doesn’t change, though He does change the way things are done from time to time. Just like when you are young you may have a curfew of 7:00 pm. But as you get older your parents start giving you a later curfew. It doesn’t mean your parents changed, they just changed the restriction they gave you.

      • “Then answer my question from a few days ago which everyone ignored. Why are no sacrifices
        being made today?”

        Forest – Abel, Cain, Abraham, and Noah offered sacrifices as a way to worship and draw near to
        God. It was not a law until the Children of Israel came out of Egypt & God gave them the law,
        which included sacrifices.
        Cain, Abel, and the others offered sacrifices to their God, just as other people offered sacrifices
        to their gods – cultural traditions.

        Also, note that Cain, Abel, Noah, and even Abraham lived BEFORE God began making a
        nation consecrated to Himself, Israel. (Yes, Abraham was the first “Hebrew”, but God did not make
        a nation from him until much later.)

        God set up His laws to set apart His people from other nations, and that is when He set up the
        sacrificial laws. He has specific laws about how to sacrifice animals, and to have a proper sacrifice
        they must be followed. (Leviticus details the sacrificial laws)
        To sacrifice now, in our backyards, would not be an acceptable form of sacrifice by Biblical
        1 – Israel has no priests or high priest
        2 – no temple (yes, an important factor – In the law (Torah) the sacrifices were to be done in the
        3 – no holy articles for performing the sacrifices

        I do not believe the others were purposely going around your question, Forest, but I do understand
        your confusion. I hope this helped (a little?)

        Let me be the first to admit that I am no expert on this matter – nor do I understand everything, or
        even half of everything for that matter. I am just learning.

        • I think you missed the point I was trying to make. And yes I think they purposefully were going around my question, because they knew that if they gave me the same response that you just did, then they would be admitting that God changes, according to their own definition of what it means for God to change. Someone earlier said the Torah was given in the very beginning, just not in written form. They basically said the laws were always in place, and never changed, and were never adjusted.

          My argument was that God can change or adjust a law that He implements, without God Himself changing. And if this is true even in one case, then it’s possible for it to be true in other cases. My stance based on what I read in the bible, is that God’s character and nature does not change, which is why the moral laws do not change. But the ceremonial laws are only being used by God to fulfill His purpose, and He can change or adjust them any time He desires to.

          • Forest,

            Oh, sorry I missed your point (an accident =).

            Well, in a sense, yes, the Torah was given at the very beginning – because what is Yeshua (Jesus) called?
            The Word of God! That includes the Torah.
            But, the Torah (the actual laws) were not given until God began setting apart a people (Israel) for Himself.

            Right, God’s character, He Himself doesn’t change – He cannot. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Amen! – We don’t serve a fickle God.

            God can do anything (except change Himself or do evil), but the laws He gave in what everyone is calling the “OT” will not pass until the new heavens and earth come.
            Matt 5: 17, 18, & 19
            17 “Don’t think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete. 18 Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud or a stroke will pass from the TORAH (LAW) — not until everything that must happen has happened. 19 So whoever disobeys the least of these mitzvot and teaches others to do so will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever OBEYS them and so teaches will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.”


            I saw in one of your comments below that you said that we need to understand that we are now under the “New Covenant”. Yes, this is true, and we understand that, but a new covenant does NOT nullify an old one. Rather, it adds on to it. It builds upon it. Never does it nullify it!

            Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the COVENANTS [plural] of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
            Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus [only through Him] ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

            Here is an interesting verse:
            Jer_31:33 – But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my LAW in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
            Why would God “write His law (Torah) on our hearts” if it no longer was valid? Why would He have us follow something that was of no consequence? And why would He implement the Torah in the Messianic Age (The 1000 year reign of Christ) if He made it of no effect to us in the New Covenant?
            Would it not make more sense to say that the Torah (Law) of God was never abolished to begin with? That was made to be followed, even by us in this New Covenant?


            Last thing – in another of your comments, I saw that you said “Hebrews and Gentiles were both called to become Christians. Eph 2:14-16.”

            Well, how could our Jewish Messiah (not Christian Messiah) call us to be Christians? I looked at the verses you listed, but I didn’t see a calling for us to all become Christians – Just that we are all made one in Messiah.

            Here are those verses, up to the end of the chapter:
            Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
            Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
            Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
            Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
            Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
            Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
            Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
            Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
            Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

            As to verses 15 & 16:
            Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
            Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

            He didn’t abolish the law, he abolished through His death the enmity. The enmity is defined in the law of commandments contained in ordinances. The enmity is the hostility that comes from transgressing the Torah. That is what sin is. Yeshua destroyed the enmity, not the law (Torah)

          • Forest,

            Could you show me where God separates the Laws (Torah) into 2 parts ~ moral & ceremonial?
            I cannot find that anywhere in Scripture.

  • No, the Father was clear that sacrifices were to be made in the city where He places His name. Jerusalem…but since you don’t read the OT, or at least study it, you didn’t realize that. So no, we can’t do sacrifices today. But Paul did. Acts. 21:26.

    • If you wanna say that I don’t study the OT (even though I continually explain it based on scripture), then I’ll have to say you don’t study the NT. Why? Because Paul taught such things (sacrifices for example) were now meaningless. Why did Timothy get circumcised, but Titus didn’t? Because he didn’t want Timothy to ruin his witness over something that didn’t really matter either way. As for Titus, it wasn’t going to be an issue in his upcoming situations. This is the same with Paul here. To Paul the purification sacrifice was no longer necessary (since he was already clean through the blood of Christ). But he did it in order to not offend anyone, because the people there had not yet come to the full knowledge of the truth. Example of Paul teaching this concept:

      Galatians 5:6
      For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

      Here is a problem I see with many of your arguments. And I’m not speaking of you only, but most everyone here. You guys often don’t read scripture in context. You can’t just take a single verse and say you understand. You need to make sure you are understanding it correctly by reading everything involved with that verse. Often, just a few verses before or after will show that you understood it incorrectly. Like your argument in this case. Acts 21:26. Yes Paul did perform a sacrifice. In context, you have to read Acts 21:17-26. Paul and those with him have arrived at Jerusalem. Speaking to James and the elders, is telling them how to conduct themselves in front of the Jews (who are zealous for the Law) without offending them. Verses 23 and 24 explain why Paul performs a sacrifice. They are going to keep the “ceremonial” Laws. This will prevent offending the believing Jews who are zealous for the Law, but have not yet come to the full knowledge of the truth about the laws. They don’t want to trouble their consciences. Since these Laws are now meaningless (because they are in Christ), it doesn’t really matter if they continue following them or not.

      Acts 21:17-26
      And when we were come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. And the [day] following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry. And when they heard [it], they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise [their] children, neither to walk after the customs. What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave [their] heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but [that] thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written [and] concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from [things] offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication. Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.

  • Short 3 minute video on WHY we don’t do sacrifices in our backyard. 🙂 Easy.


    • He just proved that God can change the way He implements the law. First of all, where were sacrifices performed before God chose where the Hebrews would perform them (Duet 16:5,6)? You claimed the Torah was given at the very beginning of mankind, and if nothing changes, how could they be performing their sacrifices without this location? It’s because at that time there was not a required location. Also, if only the Levites were to perform the sacrifices, how were sacrifices before the Hebrews existed performed, without being in disobedience to God? Yes, with the Hebrews, God did change the way it was implemented, and the rules regarding it, without He Himself changing.

      If Jesus were on earth He would not be a high priest. True, but He is still our high priest, not of an earthly temple, but of the true tabernacle, which is in heaven. Heb 8:1,2. Yes, Heb 8:4 (as he says) shows that there are still priests on earth to carry out the sacrifices. But just because they continue to perform them, does not mean it is a requirement. Which I explained in previous post, Acts 21:17-26 is an example of that.

  • Forest,

    You need to listen to Peter here.

    2Pe 3:14 So then, beloved ones, looking forward to this, do your utmost to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless,
    2Pe 3:15 and reckon the patience of our Master as deliverance, as also our beloved brother Sha’ul wrote to you, according to the wisdom given to him,
    2Pe 3:16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them concerning these matters, in which some are hard to understand,1 which those who are untaught and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do also the other Scriptures. Footnote: 1See 1 Cor. 11:6.
    2Pe 3:17 You, then, beloved ones, being forewarned, watch, lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the delusion of the lawless,
    2Pe 3:18 but grow in the favour and knowledge of our Master and Saviour יהושע Messiah. To Him be the esteem both now and to a day that abides. Amĕn.

    Peters message here in these verses is the key to understanding Paul’s letters. It can not be any plainer:

    2Pe 3:17 You, then, beloved ones, being forewarned, watch, lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the delusion of the lawless.

    You have hardened your heart brother, repent. Furthermore let’s take a look at Mathew:

    Mat 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Master, Master,’ shall enter into the reign of the heavens, but he who is doing the desire of My Father in the heavens.
    Mat 7:22 “Many shall say to Me in that day, ‘Master, Master, have we not prophesied in Your Name, and cast out demons in Your Name, and done many mighty works in Your Name?’
    Mat 7:23 “And then I shall declare to them, ‘I never knew you, depart from Me, you who work lawlessness!’1 Footnote: 1 See v. 15.
    Mat 7:24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does them, shall be like a wise man who built his house on the rock,
    Mat 7:25 and the rain came down, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.
    Mat 7:26 “And everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does not do them,1 shall be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand, Footnote: 1John 3:36.
    Mat 7:27 and the rain came down, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat on that house, and it fell, and great was its fall.”

    People will come to our messiah in the last day emphatically believing Y’shua to be messiah. He will reply to them, “Depart from me you who work lawlessness.” and few there be that find eternal life.

    This world is filled with more then a few Christians, brother, and they all work lawlessness.

    Love you guys,

    • 2 Peter 3:14-18 does not explain Paul’s epistles. He is saying to heed Paul’s epistles, for instance in Galatians. The Galatians had started believing the false teaching that one must keep all the OT laws for salvation. Paul’s epistle is telling them not to forget the truth, that salvation is in Christ alone. There were many false teachers at that time.

      Matt 7:21-27. Yep, there are many self professing christians out there who think they are saved just because they go to church and they think they are good people. If you asked them why they are saved, they couldn’t give you a clear answer, and often don’t even mention Christ’s work on the cross. When their time comes, they will die thinking they are saved, but will be faced with the truth that they are not.

      All Christians work lawlessness? Are you referring to OT lawlessness? Seriously?

      “Depart from me, you who work lawlessness.” All sin is lawlessness. Those who “work” it are continuing in sin willfully. If you want to believe that not obeying the OT ceremonial laws is a sin, you are in error. And if you think that someone like myself, am sinning because I willfully do not keep all of the OT laws, then I would be a worker of lawlessness. Therefore I would not be saved. And in that case you would be saying that keeping all of them is required for salvation. Therefore you would be guilty of the same thing Jesus condemned over and over. Salvation does not come by the Law but through Christ.

  • Another good book to read and study is a book by J.K. McKee called, The New Testament Validates Torah. This book linguistically, and culturally explains all the verses that most Christians use to explain away the Torah. From Joshua on is commentary expounding on the Torah. The Torah will and must settle all disagreements. Christians want to spiritualize everything and throw the literal meaning out the window. When I first started taking Hebrew classes the first thing my instructor told me was everything must be linguistically analyzed. Get this book and it will help in your apologetics.

  • Gal 3:19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.

    What law was added…The Levitical priesthood

    • The key part of that verse is “until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.” That seed would be Jesus. He came. Now, because of that word “until”, the Law is no longer required.

      Context, look a few verses back, Gal 3:16 – Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

      Are you guys reading this? Even this one simple verse shows that keeping all the old Laws are no longer required!

  • Great discussion and comments. My challenge in similar discussions with other Christians who hold the same view as Forest is that most often the ability to openly consider each other’s views becomes lost in the desire to win the argument. And that goes for me too, I have to fight the temptation to win the debate at any cost, thinking that my brilliant rational ability and obvious command of the TRUE facts of Scripture will cause them to immediately repent of their error and correct their ways. Guess how much success that has brought me? I find Y’shua’s example in communicating the message of the Kingdom quite interesting. He doesn’t go out of his way to clinch the argument. Often He makes a statement or gives a parable and does not even explain it, except maybe to His disciples. Those who have a heart for truth will pursue understanding, and it is to them that the Ruach (Holy Spirit) reveals His truth. Maybe that is why Y’shua’s method of communication is likened to fishing, or being fishers of men. To be a great fishers you need to know how to cast, and how to lure, and how to bring in those who feel drawn to Him.

    For my family and friends who struggle to accept this “Torah thing” we’re doing, the best way I believe we’ll make an impact is by demonstrating the life of Torah in how we live. That is why Paul can so confidently say “follow me, as I follow Mashiach,” or James say “Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works ”
    Let us all remain teachable. Let us not be quick to dismiss Forest’s position because we’ve heard it all before and we have our list of scriptures all worked out. “For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.” 1 Cor. 13

    Forest, I beg you also brother, keep searching, as I can see that you do. Pray that the Father will allow you to see the wonderful truths of Scripture in a fresh way. Desire truth, and resist the temptation of thinking you’ve got it all worked out.

    Brad Scott has a great article I recommend reading titled “These are the days of Eli… too much information.”

    • Great post. As I’ve said before, think about what is being said, don’t just get defensive and respond. Forget who is saying it. If you desire the truth, you should investigate these things, to make sure you are in the truth. With every post I’m replying to, I look into it first. It just happens many of the arguments presented against my position are actually backing up my position, because the scripture they reference was taken out of context. Like I’ve said, don’t take my word for it, consider what I present, and see if it lines up with scripture. Scripture needs to be our authority, otherwise we are just going off of our preferences. By the way, I’m not just doing an online search for these arguments, and repeating what someone else has said, that holds my same beliefs. For everything I have presented, it’s been from at that moment reading the bible. Seriously, you guys are wearing me out, there’s too many of you, against lil’ ol’ me. But I am thankful for this, because if nothing else, it has sharpened me, and caused me to love the word even more.

      • One thing you need to remeber though, is that the verses and points you are listing, is exactly WHERE most of us came from already. So, its not so much people not looking into your view point…rather than people telling you why they left it. Your not going to tell a foreigner who came to America about their own culture or country, thats where they came from. They know. Just tryin to help out.

        • Exactly, I was thinking the same thing last night! I honestly don’t believe that there are many (if any) here who did not come out of Christianity. We’ve all been exactly where Forest is, and many of us were taught these doctrines from very early on.

          Forest, please keep this in mind and don’t believe for a second that those responding to you here in these comments are firing off random shots from the hip without thinking. Much time, study, and prayer has been invested to get someone to the point of walking in Torah, it is not something that happens without an in-depth study of all verses and doctrines you cite.

          Please watch “Identity Crisis” by Jim Staley on YouTube, I believe it will shed light on many things for you.

  • Forest,

    Believe it or not, I woke up at 5am this morning thinking about you! I believe that you are honestly searching for the Truth, and I believe wholeheartedly that you will find it. There are those who simply look to argue and stir up trouble, and then there are true seekers. I believe you to be the latter, and I want to encourage you to stay here and continue your search.

    I was in your exact same shoes just one year ago, and my life and walk was absolutely transformed when I came to the realization of who I really was. Let me explain, perhaps it may be helpful to you…

    For me, the process of change really started when I stumbled onto some information about the true origins and meanings of the holidays (“holy days”) that I kept and loved. As someone who was raised in “the church”, I was absolutely floored to learn that many of the customs and traditions I was taught to love were blatantly and firmly rooted in paganism. Red flags went up, and I immediately knew that the ramifications of this discovery were great (as the saying goes, you never find just one cockroach). I knew that I was going to go through the potentially painful process of cleaning out my closet, so to speak, and I began to do a complete auditing of my beliefs to see what really did line up with the Word, and what was a man-made addition. The Word is our anchor. It’s the sole definition of Truth. I needed to get back to it.

    Over the course of the next year, I learned about the incredible gift of the Sabbath, the Father’s dietary instructions (which, like everything, are for our own good), the Feasts of YHWH, and much, much more. One of the most exciting things that I discovered during that time was my true identity.

    Sadly, I never truly understood how I fit in to the picture. I, like many so-called Christians, was under the impression that I belonged to something new — I was part of “the church”. We were separate from the Commonwealth of Israel and didn’t have to do all of “the stuff” that “Jews” had to do, but we got all of the benefits. It was a pretty sweet deal, and I was happy about that. However, once I began to really dig in and learn about the beauty and depth of meaning that goes along with the Torah, the Sabbath (my favorite day of the week now — by far), the Feasts, etc. — I suddenly started to see things differently. I began to feel like I was getting the short end of the stick, that I was being shortchanged, that my life and walk were incredibly shallow and that they paled in comparison to the walk of a “Jew” who believed in Messiah.

    As I continued down this path, I came upon a study called “Who is Israel?” that forever changed my life. It was a true “ah-ha!” moment for me that changed everything. For the first time, I realized that I was grafted in to the Commonwealth of Israel and absolutely no different whatsoever from the native-born. I learned what the Father’s definitions of the terms “Israel” and “Jews” are. I found out that there was truly one bride, one Groom, one Kingdom, one Book (not two, as we’ve created), and one set of Instructions. Halleluyah! Once I came to this realization, many of the questions I had about where I fit in and what I was expected to do were immediately answered. I am so grateful that the Father revealed these things to me, I can’t even begin to put into words how much my life has been blessed since I began to walk in obedience to His perfect Torah.

    My point in telling you all of this, is that I want to encourage you to begin the initially-painful process of stripping away the layers of non-Scriptural tradition and belief from your walk. Get away from the intellectual, ear-tickling ramblings of men and their modern-day definitions of words, and begin to use our Father’s dictionary. As believers, we are the true Israel, and the book that many refer to as the “OT” is our heritage (it is not solely “Jewish”, Judah was only one tribe). It contains our history, our future, and the instructions by which we’re all to live. Once you come to the understanding that you are a Hebrew (which means “crossed over”), everything just makes a lot more sense!

    • Amen, this is my testimony along with a lot of other people..Praise YHVH

    • I have been looking into all this, and what is being presented. Is everyone else honestly considering what I’m saying, and looking into it as I’m presenting it? It’s a two way street here. You guys think I need to learn the truth on this… well, I think you guys need to see the truth as well. So please look into what I’m saying as well. If we are all honestly seeking the truth, someone is likely to give. (not that it’s about winning). And yes, you all need to be the ones to give 🙂

      No I’m not a Hebrew. Hebrews and Gentiles were both called to become Christians. Eph 2:14-16.

  • Forest,

    I do hope you don’t feel out numbered. Many here have been right where you are. I personally am in my 4th year of the Torah cycle and it is a blessing.

    I hope you continue to pray and be humble in seeking the Father through Yeshua. Our culture (especially the western) has been indoctrinated by a greco-roman culture that deals primarily in the metaphysical. However, the writers inspired by the Holy Spirit were not. Hebrew is opposite of Greek. It is concrete and not abstract in nature.

    Obviously no one here is going to convert you to this torah-observant life, However, our Father says if you seek Him with all of your heart, I believe He will show this path to be the one He always intended for His children.

    Be blessed and may we all continue to seek Yah.


  • HEY ALL Just had a crash on my database. Forest, I think you copied and pasted your responses too fast. You’re going to have to paste them in again but don’t do it so fast. Give it a minute or two between each one. I hope you still have your responses.

    Also I deleted somebody else in the process when I was trying to fix the database crash. Sorry.

    As you were…

    • Luckily I still have the text file open that I typed in. Otherwise I’d have to kill you…. since that no killing law is no longer in effect. …kidding.

  • I think many of you are failing to realize that in Christ we are in a new covenant. We are no longer in the old covenant, in this case the Mosaic Covenant which is where many of these Laws that we are discussing come from.

    Hbr 8:7-13
    For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.

    Highly recommend reading Hebrews Chapters 8-10.

    And for the “God never changes” argument, and the law never changes arguement… Heb 7:11, 12
    If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need [was there] that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

    Again, Gentiles are not called to become Hebrews. Both Hebrews and Gentiles are called to become Christians. Eph 2:14-16.
    For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us];
    Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

    • Hi Forest,

      There is no doubt that most of the verses you are citing would certainly qualify for Peter’s warning in 2 Peter 3:16. These are very difficult to understand passages, as we’re thousands of years removed from the time and culture in which they were written. If a writing of Paul seems to say something contrary (or new) to what we’re told throughout the rest of the book, it should stick out like a sore thumb. Paul even seemingly contradicts himself in many passages, and we know that that’s not a possibility — the error lies in our understanding of his writings. This is why it’s so important to be a student of the Word (the whole book)…

      2 Timothy 2:15: “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”

      Regarding Hebrews 8, the word “covenant” was added by the English translators and was not in the original text. What is being referred to is the Priesthood. Back up a few verses to the beginning of the chapter for context and I think you’ll see it more clearly.

      As far as you rejecting the idea of being a Hebrew, have you considered the fact that all Jews are Hebrew, but not all Hebrews are Jews? Why did Yeshua say that he came only for the lost sheep of the House of Israel? Why do the gates to the Kingdom have the names of the 12 tribes of Israel on them? Where exactly are you seeing the instructions in Scripture that “both Hebrews and Gentiles are called to become Christians”? Was Jesus a Christian? This is foundational stuff, and it will literally change your outlook on the whole book once you grasp who we truly are in Messiah. By the way, have you watched Jim Staley’s excellent teaching on YouTube called “Identity Crisis”? Highly recommended, and I believe that it will greatly help in sorting this all out. The truth is, you’re either in Covenant and part of the Commonwealth of Israel, or you are an out of Covenant Gentile — the phrase “in Covenant Gentile” is an oxymoron. 🙂

    • Hey Brother- can you tell me what the New Covenant is? Where it is found and the details regarding the New Covenant? Yes, Messiah paid the price for our transgression (sin is transgression of Torah 1st John 3:4)… and “ratified” the New (Actually “Renewed”) Covenant. But I would like you to tell me what that New Covenant entails… and who it is made with? Don’t forget that Messiah cam not but for the lost sheep of Israel. – His words, not mine.

      Can you show me the three OT passages regarding the Promise of the New Covenant as well as the NT passages that tell us exactly what will happen when we become part of said covenant (2 important NT passages come to mind).

      We can’t claim to be under the New Covenant while we reject and essential part of that covenant.

      Shalom ahki.

  • Awesome post J.P. and Forest…I see such a motivation, and a true love for The Father in you and please know that you will be in my prayers through your journey. And yes, I can not believe we havnt mentioned Jim Staleys teaching until now, Watch it Forest!!! Called “Identity Crisis”

  • Hi Forest, here are a few more things to meditate on as you are working through all of this…

    2 Timothy 4:3 “For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.”

    What is sound doctrine? What would qualify as doctrines that “itching ears want to hear”? Does obeying the instructions of the Father and putting aside our own desires sound like a doctrine that appeals to the masses of “itching ears”? Do you believe that the mega-churches which are alive and prospering today would be 1/10 of their size if the leaders in them were teaching about the importance of repentance and turning from sin, back to the Father’s Torah? Do you think that they might lose a few members if the pulpit began to deliver the message that bacon with those eggs is sin? I think the answer to these questions is obvious.

    Scripture tells us that they will turn their ears away from the Truth (which is the Word) and turn aside to myths. This is textbook Christianity, my friend, and it is not the way we were called to walk by the Messiah or our Father. Please consider these facts:

    1. Christianity teaches a Messiah by a different name (in English, His name should actually be “Joshua”).

    2. Christianity teaches a Messiah that was born at a different time of the year (He was not born in the dead of winter on December 25th).

    3. Christianity teaches a Messiah that was put to death and subsequently resurrected on alternative days, which ironically do not line up with the prophecy we’re given in Scripture that would actually qualify Him as such!

    Friday => Sunday ≠ 3 days + 3 nights

    4. Christianity teaches a Messiah that came to do a “new thing”, when Scripture tells us that He came speaking and teaching the Words of His Father.

    5. Christianity is a religion that follows an entirely different set of holidays (“holy days”) which don’t even celebrate the things we’re explicitly told time and time again by the Father to remember. For example, Easter celebrates the resurrection while Passover remembers our Messiah’s death. Why is that? The Father’s Feasts are a shadow of things to come, and the Fall Feasts have not even been fulfilled as of yet as they all point to the second coming of our Messiah.

    6. Christianity has constructed it’s own laws of do’s and don’ts (don’t consume any alcohol, go to church on Sunday, etc.), while it has been so quick to do away with the perfect instructions of the Father.

    7. Christianity has replaced the Father’s beautiful gift of the Sabbath, a day that He created for man, with a meaningless forgery that typically consists of a one hour church service, lunch at a restaurant, and a day filled with football. Surely this is not what the Father had in mind when He set apart a special day for rest and alone time with Him.

    8. Christianity has ironically embraced the slogan, WWJD, while managing to do the exact opposite of what He did. We’re told to walk as He walked, but the walk of a modern-day Christian in no way, shape, or form resembles the Way.

    9. The diet of a Christian does not line up with what Scripture tells us is food, and what is not.

    …and the list goes on, and on, and on.

    Initially, these facts were very difficult for me to swallow, but it either lines up with Scripture, or it doesn’t. It’s either Truth (from the Father), or lies (from the adversary). There’s no middle-ground, and to be so would be lukewarm. This is a continual, ongoing journey, and it should be the goal of all of us to hold to the Truth while purging the man-made doctrines that have crept in to our faith.

  • I see that a lot of my replies are missing. Maybe because I have done better at proving my point?

    So if my posts are going to be removed depending on which one you want to allow, then there is no reason for me to post anymore. For instance when I gave the true definition of “pleroo”. My post proved New2Torah wrong, so he removed my comment.

    Besides, I have well proven my point over and over. Not to be mean, but you guys have been brainwashed by this idea that we are still under the old law. You have someone come along who can speak english and hebrew, and you automatically believe everything they say about scripture. They (if they are Hebrew) think they are special, more special than non-Hebrew Christians, and want to get you to be like them. So they twist scripture to get you to believe the same thing. And they tell you the english version of the bible has everything wrong, when it doesn’t.

    As you see below, the Gentile believers were not to be troubled with having to keep the old Laws, but instead were only told that they need to repent and turn away from their sins.

    Acts 15:19-21
    Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood. For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

    • So those are the only four commandments Gentiles have to observe under the New Covenant? You realize that is from Torah right? So its like saying: “Dont get the gentiles troubled by keeping moses, instead let them keep 4 commandments from moses”

      That makes sense?

      Everyone on here has been kind to you as fas as I have seen so there is no need to say we are brainwashed. It is funny that people who are trying to be OBIDIENT to the Fathers commands are being called brainwashed, wasn’t it Satan himself who started this trend of DISOBIDIENCE? You never adressed Mandies comments where she proved from scripture that Hebrews and Gentiles were not called to become “Christians” rather the Gentiles were grafted into Israel and became Hebrews! You can keep on believing you are a gentile with a Covenant but as far as Jeremiah 31:31 goes it seems like the only covenant made was with the House of Israel and the House of Judah. And if you are part of Israel then you gotta start following the rules.

      God bless!

      • Furthermore Forest, have you considered the meaning of the last sentence in the passage you quoted?

        “For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.”

        What is the meaning of this statement and why was it used to further explain the decision made by James & Co.? I honestly would like to hear your thoughts on this, so I will wait for your reply.

  • I apologize, my “pleroo” definition is still up. It’s a little confusing with the posts in reverse order. Either way, I’m leaving on vacation and can’t keep up with this thread. BUt again, I have proven my point with scripture, and it is obvious you do not want to believe what it says. And yes, the NT does take precedence over the OT.

    • Forest, you said, “And yes, the NT does take precedence over the OT.” This is one of the most absurd, ridiculous, ignorant, and revealing statements a person professing to believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob could make! You are pitting one part of The Book against the other, yet all the while, I’m sure, spouting to anyone who will listen, things like, “Every word of God in the Bible is true,” and, “There are no contradictions in the Bible”. Give it up and repent; that is, change your mind about the wrong direction you’re currently headed, and return to the Father to walk in HIS ways – NOT the erroneous, lawless ways of the Gentile Christian Church (GCC). You haven’t proven or shown anything to anybody here except the fact that you can take scripture out of context and beat the tired drum of the dominant religious system (which has so blatantly and obviously strayed from the faith which was once delivered unto the saints). You’ve also illustrated that you can parrot the likes of John MacArthur, John Piper, Charles Spurgeon, Martin Luther, etc., and the error-filled, seminary-designed doctrines of the GCC.

  • Forest …with all do respect, you have not proven your point with The Fathers Word. And all the more showing that it isnt anyone here who refuses to believe something. Most everyone here is dead set on believeing His Whole Word, and not just the choice picks. And last but never least, thats a pretty lofty statement “And yes, the NT does take precedence over the OT” I find it very difficult to believe that you could stand before ELOHIM Himself, and repeat those words. It does in NO way take precedence. You may prefer to look at it that way because it tickles your ears better, but my friend that is a mistake. You read any other book you buy, from front to back to get the whole picture. How dare any one of us pick up The Creators Instructions and start anywhere other than the beginning, pretending as though we have the authority to call one part more important than the other. That.is.false. He is the Aleph and the Tav, that is first and the last, not the Tav and the Aleph, for this would be backwards. He is a God of ORDER, and we should act accordingly. As I said before you WILL be in my prayers. I hope you stay safe on your vacation. Shalom brother~

  • The delusion of the lawless…

    Maybe we failed in breaking it, maybe he is stubborn and wont hear reproof. There is a lesson here though.

    Anyway, I’m overjoyed to see my brothers and sisters walking in truth, it’s not common in this world. Way to overcome guys.

    Your brother,

  • There has been some great conversations here. Over 100 comments. Amazing. I’m going to be stealing (sorry) some of the commentary for future blog postings as so many good points have been made. I WOULD LOVE to get Forest in a youtube debate. Split screen conversation recorded on Skype and then uploaded to YouTube.

  • Aramaic Peshitta (A.D. 40-150 A.D.) what the apostles originally wrote

    • It’s great to bring attention to Peshitta, but what you have stated is a fallacy.

  • Hey, I have a question! I glanced through, read quite a bit of the posts, but I admit not all 114 of them. I am wondering if one thing has been addressed–hearing and obeying the great counselor, the Holy Spirit? Scripture is excellent and stands forever, but also I haven’t seen anything said about the guidance of the Holy Spirit. If he tells me to go to bed at a certain time, to carry out a task, to respond to someone in a certain way, if he clarifies an issue, helps me make a decision, physically comforts me, or instructs me to do a generous thing… while there are principles in the bible that would agree with these things, the specific instructions come from hearing the voice of the Spirit and feeling him leading me as one of his sheep. The more I study scripture, the richer my tangible experience of his presence becomes. It isn’t an either/or thing. I find that the bible throughout is a book of encounters with God. Think of Abraham, Moses, Joshua, and others following the presence of God, actually speaking with him personally. Think of the glorious ark carrying his presence and becoming the one factor for Israel’s security. I am grateful to live in this day in time where the scriptures are revealed, the Messiah has come, and the Holy Spirit has chosen me as a dwelling place. To make a point, I will say that if the Holy Spirit instructs us to do or not do something, and we do not comply, we have sinned, whether it is explicitly stated in the bible or not. The whole law is summed up in our love for God and others, after all.

    • I agree Katie but understand we are to test the spirits. If you get a “feeling” and there is something in scripture that doesn’t jive with that feeling, then the contradiction tells you something is wrong.

      1 John 4:1
      Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

      The Holy Spirit would never instruct us to do something contrary to the Father’s Instruction.

      • As I practice worship and obedience, I become sensitive to the leading of the Holy Spirit. I sense his presence, his preferences, and his specific instructions. As you said he will not contradict scripture. It is his position to interpret the scriptures; he brings them alive in our hearts in a variety of ways. All his sheep know his voice. Jesus’ righteousness (and expectations for his followers) far exceeded the Pharisees’. I don’t have an issue of mistrusting words such as “feeling” when it comes to matters of the spirit because I trust God’s grace to guide me into righteousness. We walk by faith, not by sight. I think the church has become far too caught up in rationalizing/reasoning things to the point that they mistrust the supernatural things of the bible, and that’s too bad. It is nothing short of rebellion and offense towards the person of Jesus to not believe in his power, glory, and divine position as the absolute unchanging eternal reality. This is the very Spirit who wrote the scriptures after all. Deuteronomy commands us not to test the Lord, specifically by mistrusting and rebelling against his supernatural interactions. Jesus stated plainly that the only sin which could permanently separate us from the Father without a chance of redemption is blaspheming the Holy Spirit. I repeat this point: it is HIS job to interpret the scripture to us and to judge our purity. It is never our job to tell him what to do, be, or think. He is the gateway to purity, and he uses the bible to do this. There is a great mystery in how Jesus and the Word are intertwined in one as is written in the book of John. This thought should give us extra reverence for the bible. However, as the bible indicates, without the Holy Spirit (given to us because of the Blood–it all hinges on the blood!), the law alone could never ever make us acceptable before the Lord.

        Before I depart I want you to know that I wholeheartedly agree with the point that Jesus came to fully cleanse us of our old selves. He freed us to sin no more. “Be holy, therefore, as I am holy.” He also freed us to have the same fellowship with the Father that he has, which is so astonishing to me. And so wonderful. That’s what I want for everyone. So many believers haven’t come the point of seeing this way, that they are truly Sons and sinners no more. (Yes, we can choose to still sin, but that is not in line with our new nature and we do not have to keep sinning.) This is why when I see no one mentioning the move of the spirit, or call it the anointing if you wish, as necessary to touch our society for godliness, I get concerned about the level of freedom/fellowship/intimacy they are enjoying with the Father of lights who gives all good gifts, namely direct fellowship with himself via the “advocate,” the “comforter,” the “counselor,” the “spirit of truth.” I hope my point has been made. Many blessings upon you.

  • I really liked Todd & the way of the master series because it gives a great overview of the gospel HOWEVER they depart from scripture by saying we are no longer under the law – meaning that we are under no obligation to obey all God’s instructions.

    They leave out the Feasts of the Lord, the Lord’s Sabbath & other stuff. The sad things is just as the article points out believers today get to choose what they want to obey & disobey.

    Oh well.

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