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New Moon – Full Moon Debate

Aug 24, 2012 by     23 Comments    Posted under: Uncategorized

This is something that has been coming up lately in email questions and postings on Youtube. “Is the Full Moon really the New Moon?” At first I recoiled at such a question and then I realized there are all of a sudden a couple people in the Hebrew Roots movement actually pushing this teaching as ultimate truth and ridiculing anyone who questions it. This is absolutely ridiculous and absurd and is a direct result of misinterpreting scripture.

119 Ministries has done an extensive study on this argument and has laid it out in a very detailed fashion. If you encounter this silly argument, I hope you will do your homework and test it against scripture.

Let me add that just because someone teaches this “full moon” idea, doesn’t mean we should throw out all of their teachings. Scot Dryer, who I really respect on a lot of levels and whom I believe is very talented in reading and understanding many things is just wrong on this topic in my opinion. I go back and examine scripture and I just have no idea how he comes to this conclusion.

With all teachings, examine scripture and test it. Eat the meat, spit out the bones.

Please see HERE for the scripture analysis.

23 Comments + Add Comment

  • What a great analysis by 119 ministries. I was following along this discussion and they have helped me for the past couple of weeks to understand more. Im so glad you’re getting this out to more people Zac.

    Yah bless,

    Malcolm

  • I like their teachings, but must disagree with their teaching on the conjunction being the new moon. It is too unpredictable with the naked eye. The 1st visible crescent i believe is proper.

  • How is the crescent not unreliable? If you by chance don’t see the first crescent due to weather conditions then your whole year is thrown off. The conjunction is calculated leaving no room for error or for us to miss Yahs appointed times. How did David and Jonathan -KNOW without a doubt that the new moon was the next day? And why did they wait three days? Obviously to sight the crescent as a confirmation that the conjunction did indeed happen but the crescent in no way dictated the start of the month. I think you should reconsider 119 ministries teaching on the calendar and test it to the Word of God.

    Yah bless,

    Malcolm

    • The same questions could be asked of the conjunction, but even more so.
      You cant see the conjunction, the moon is in front of the sun, it is physically impossible to know when the conjunction takes place without some sorts of technology. When I see that last bit of crescent disappear at the end of a month, I know that in a couple days that it will reappear. but I dont know the exact day that the conjunction takes place, it can take hours or days. If one could simply calculate the new moons out, then “every man would know the day or hour” of Yom Teruah.

      • Its more simple than you may or may not see the sliver, Allen When you can no longer see it, the festival of the new moon began and continued until it could be spotted again. This was made VERY clear in 1 Samuel 20.

        I totally understand why you would side with the sliver being the new moon. Until I saw the many scriptures that made it clear that conjunction was the point of the new moon and HOW EASY it was to determine that, I was a sliver guy too.

        Never stop studying and always keep searching for truth.

      • It is a fallacy to say you cant know the day of the conjunction without some sort of technology. It is just a matter of simply counting days, there is 14 days between full moon and conjunction. Furthermore there is no command in Torah to directly visibly observe the new moon, only to observe the new moon day. And again, where in Torah does other state that no man would know the day or the hour in relation to yoo teruah? I have yet to find that. Furthermore the prophets all indicate as does yeshua that he will return on a day that the moon does not give its light. Ie the conjunction

      • I have to agree with Allen entirely. We watch/wait for the appearance of the sliver…then blast the shofars! Seems kinda odd for somebody to sound the shofar when in reality they have seen…nothing…nothing to actually witness.

        1Sa 20:24 And Dawiḏ hid in the field. And when the New Moon came, the sovereign sat down by the food to eat.

        “When the new moon…CAME”

        • Then why did they eat for 3 days, Terry? They were waiting for the sighting of the sliver.

          The sliver indicated then end of the feast…not the beginning.

          Consider also Amos 8:5: “Saying, When will the new moon be gone,”
          If they could see the sliver, they wouldn’t have to ask when the new moon would be gone because they could see it.

          Verse after verse is given in the 119 video that shows the Day of Trumpets/New Moon is in darkness. I would ask you to watch/rewatch that WHOLE video and reconsider.

  • I have bought, reviewed, studied, and shared the 119 video. I, as well as many others, simply do not agree…but then again, we will all have to wait until Yeshua returns to get us all straightened out…but until then, we all do the best we can with what we know; all playing a part in restoration. None of us have it all correct; but that does not mean we cannot grow and learn together. One of my dear brothers I shared this with responded as such…

    Dear Terry,

    Thank you very much for the thorough and thought-provoking teaching on the Scriptural Calendar. The presentation was polished, scholarly and professionally done.

    In my opinion, some credibility was lost at the beginning, after an outstanding case was made for the Aviv barley and the month of the Aviv, when the speaker suggested using another method for determining the beginning of the year and just using the Biblical method as a check.

    It is true that the earth’s position in the universe determines the seasons, and so the stars and their position relative to us is are a marker, but we are told specifically to follow the Aviv barley.

    I feel this transfer of determining authority from the Aviv barley to the stars was used somewhat deceptively by the speaker to set a precedence for the transference of determining authority away from the appearance of the renewed moon to a moon we cannot see.

    There is absolutely no precedent in Torah for using the stars or the equinox to determine the ‘beginning of months.’ The Creator could not be more clear regarding the Abib barley. Not following the Abib is just plain disobedient, even if other methods yield the same result. Father named the first month of the year ‘the month of the Abib!’

    We must remember that the books of Job, of Samuel, Acts and so forth, are not Torah. They offer us history, example, prophecy, teaching, understanding, illumination, explanation and insight. All sorts of non-Biblical teachings have been developed by men using non-Torah Scripture as a foundation instead of Torah.

    We cannot say for certain that the kingdom of Israel under Saul in the book of Samuel was completely obedient to Torah, any more than we can say that the first-century followers of Messiah in the book of Acts were completely obedient to Torah. In fact, we know from the books of Samuel and Acts that both groups were not.

    And this lead to concerns regarding the primarily Biblical defense for using the conjunctive moon for the beginning of the month or year.

    This story regarding David was never intended to teach us how to determine the beginning of months. It may shed some light on how the kingdom under Saul was celebrating Yom Teruah, but Saul is not our example. Neither is David.

    It should also be noted that if David’s conversation took place on the 29th day of the month, he would have known that the following day was the last day of the month regardless of whether the renewed moon was sighted or not.

    At about this point in the presentation, there was a rather vague point about Yom Teruah not being a Feast. This is simply not the case. It is not a pilgrimage Feast, but it is most definitely one of the Feasts in Leviticus 23, and quite special in that it is the only Feast that occurs on a day and hour determined only by the Father, and not by simple counting. He controls the amount of illumination and the atmospheric conditions that determine whether the Hodesh will be sighted on a particular day.

    The second witness cited for following the conjunctive moon is the death of Yahshua. We are certainly in full agreement regarding the days of the week and the fact that Pesach had to occur on a Wednesday in order for the Gospel accounts to be completely accurate and in harmony with each other and Yahshua’s own prophecy regarding three days and three nights.

    The presenter utilized a significant amount of rabbinic testimony regarding the final forty years of the second temple period and made the unspoken assertion that these events occurred because of the death of Yahshua in 30 A.D., which those same rabbis will not, of course, admit.

    However, a great deal of rabbinic testimony regarding the two witnesses required for the sighting of the Hodesh and the stamp of approval on those testimonies by the Sanhedrin, is ignored.

    It is assumed that the temple was definitely and absolutely destroyed in 70 A.D. While this is possibly the most popular date, it is by no means the only accepted date by serious and resected historians. Some are very adamant that the correct date is 69 A.D. and some take the date back even further.

    It is interesting that while the conjunctive moon works perfectly with a 30 A.D. date for the death of Yahshua, a 29 A.D. date works perfectly with a Hodesh that begins with the sighted moon.

    Should the presenter have admitted this fact for the information of those who are honestly seeking truth on this matter? I think so.

    The argument that the dark moon ‘sign’ at the end of time is evidence of a conjunctive moon is rather weak. If the Hodesh is determined by the conjunctive moon, a dark moon on Yom Teruah would hardly be a ‘sign’, but rather a regular and expected occurrence.

    The point was made that just as the day begins in darkness, so the month begins in the absence of any light from the moon. But of course, the first supposition is not true. The day begins when the sun sets, at dusk, and there is evidence of light. What does this truth say about the presenter’s conclusion that the month must also begin in the absence of light?

    The presenter’s parting barb regarding the sliver and Islam is pathetic and beneath him. The Sabbath, the Sacrifices, the Feasts and every other aspect of Torah has been twisted by those who do not posses circumcised hearts.

    The final explanation of the rigmarole required to determine when anything occurs on the Creator’s Calendar using the conjunctive moon was, well, a bit humorous. I mean really. I am a mechanical engineer and I am used to following complex numerical calcutions. I did follow it and it was very well explained. But so much for explaining it to a seven-year-old. Or my mother. In fact, it would be well over the heads of most of the people I know. Conjunction takes something dead simple and makes it very difficult for most sincere Torah-keepers to follow. This is not a reason to abandon the theory, but it is not consistent with the rest of Torah which is not complicated for those who desire to be obedient.

    I am grateful for the explanation of the conjunctive moon theory, for a sincere and humble presentation, and for the presenters attitude of teachability and his statement that our understanding is certainly a work in progress.

    It was time and effort well spent.

    ——————————————————-

    May we be blessed in deeper understanding and application as that day approaches!

    Shalom,
    Terry

    • I just wanted to point out for the benefit of people reading this discussion for the first time that 119 ministries responded to the questions your friend had. Maybe zac could repost it here as well.

      • Jon was very cordial…as always! Love them folks at 119! Here is his reply:

        Message flagged Monday, April 2, 2012 3:35 PM Shalom Terry,

        Thank you for your input. We did not wish to offend regarding the crescent
        and Islam connection. We just encourage others to do research on that
        matter, as it appears that there is a connection worth studying. It was not
        meant as a slam on the crescent, as at one time we used to follow the
        crescent method, and know many that still do. Perhaps in a follow up
        version we will try to soften that some, so that it does not come across as
        offensive.

        Your friend put together a rather lengthy response. There are a few points
        that we can take the time to comment on.

        Recall that Genesis 1:14 does declare that the stars play a role in the
        mo’ed, and scripture is clear that Heavens trump Earthly. Thus the comments
        trying to place more authority on the Earthly harvest, of which the Heavens
        rule over, does confuse us. We do stick to the patterns that the stars (and
        sun and moon) declare in establishing the appointed times and signs. The
        aviv is simply a result of the signs in the Heavens, not the other way
        around. Though, we and your friend would still come to the same calculation
        as far as the first month, just not the first day…

        Scripture does not declare to follow the aviv barley, but simply notes the
        correlation. Genesis 1:14 declares the sun, moon, and stars to be the
        causal mechanisms for the appointed times, the aviv is merely correlation.
        As we know, correlation does not imply causation.

        We would be interested in a response on Psalm 81:3 to consider the review
        complete. To us, that is the most difficult piece to dismiss.

        At any rate, it is possible that we have figured out nothing, and have it
        completely wrong.

        I myself (Jon) am also a mechanical and black belt lean/six sigma process
        engineer. When I examine the statistical chances of all of these evidences
        lining up the way they do, they leave me rather convinced of the same
        conclusion. And this is with taking the common dates involved (such as 30
        C.E. And 70 C.E.)

        We are still examining feedback on the teaching, and if someone presents a
        good scriptural challenge to it, we are more than willing to change it. We
        have done that for other teachings as well. We are ok with being wrong,
        should that be the case…we just want to understand and practice the truth.
        As we are sure all are trying to do, regardless of their position. We have
        literally been all over the place on the calendar, and the most recent was
        the same position as your friend’s. After further study on the matter, we
        felt like we could no longer defend our position using the crescent, and
        could not answer to the challenges either.

        Please tell your friend that it was highly appreciated to review the
        teaching…not everyone of differing opinions is willing to do so.

        May Yahweh bless you in walking in the whole Word of God.

        Jon

        ————————————————

        So great that we are all on this path together!

        Shalom,
        Terry

  • Yes, John already posted a reply to his comments on the calendar post.

    Either way, those of us who disagree or agree on sliver or conjunction will be aware of the appointed times and will indeed be ready when he returns in the future. We need to be in prayer of those who will not be ready for his return because they have no knowledge of His appointed times.

    -z

    • Well said Zac…and let it be known, even though I wait for the sliver sighting…I’ll have my eyes wide open on the conjunction too!

      ;-)

    • I agree Zac. Praise Yah that we have come to this knowledge in the last days so that we can be a light to the nations!

  • Another thing occurred to me that may lend further insite. We have been blessed to have Eric Bissell with us for several weeks. He has been deep into the Paleo Hebrew for quite some time…amazing the deeper revelation revealed from the Paleo…next time I talk with him I’ll bring the subject up and see what we can uncover.

    I haven’t seen him for a few days, he was planning on going back to Oregon to prepare to sukkot with us. So, it may be a bit before we can dig into it.

    Shalom

  • Shalom all,
    I am amazed at how many debate the issue of the conjunction being the new moon…. this is ridiculous. And to use Dawid and Yehonathan as an example to prove your view is not proof enough. the reason for their being two days for the new moon feast was to accommodate anyone who was unable to attend the feast due to uncleanness… which is exactly what the response of Sha’ul was as he said that Dawid must have been unclean!
    One of the most debated topics among many Torah Followers is the assumption that Hanok (Enoch) used a sun only calendar, which is not true if they would but just read the book of Enoch
    here is a couple of verses from Enoch:
    Ḥanoḵ chapter 78:
    : 6-7 “When the moon begins its cycle, it appears in the sky one half of a seventh part; it will become fully illumined from the fourteenth day; 7 it completes its illumination the fifteenth, becoming fulfilled according to the sign of the year and becoming fifteen parts. Thus the moon waxes in fifteen parts.”
    Here we see the description of how the moon ‘waxes’ – that is to become full which is completed on the 15th of the month and then begins to ‘wane’ – which is to decrease in its illumination from the sun.
    : 11 “During all the seasons when the moon is made to run its cycle, the light is being beamed into it the moon facing the sun until the illumination of the moon is completed in the course of fourteen days; and when it is lit completely, it radiates light in the sky.”
    During all the seasons the moon is made to run its cycle of illumination – so it clearly not only appointed for seasons but also for the marker of the monthly cycle!
    This next verse is the one that I like to show as it is clear when the month begins and lines up with our text in Shemoth:
    : 12 “On the first day, it is called the new moon because on that day the illumination begins to set upon it.”
    What we must understand is that at the time of Dawid and Yehonathan I firmly beleive that there was still a 30 day month cycle, which changed at the time of Hizqiyahu when Yeshayahu came and told him that he would live another 15 years and that the sun dial of Ahaz was turned back 10 degrees which when calculated amount to a loss of 10 days per year and hence a 13th month every 3 years.
    This is important for us to understand as well as many try to say that there is no proof of a 13th month in Scripture when in fact there is!!!
    In Yehezq’el (Ezekiel) – from teh key markers we are given between chapter 1 and chapter 8 we can see that in order for Yehezq’el to lie on his side for 430 days there had to be a 13th month in the year he began to lie on his side – go and calculate it yourselves and see.
    the point is… let us use the ‘lights’ that YHWH has given us and the moon (first sliver) determines the beginning of the month and the full moon we see both Matzot and Sukkot beginning.

    Shalom to all

  • I don’t know why people think that calculating a new moon is hard. It’s about as easy as knowing that the toast is going to pop. The Babylonians even had it down to 0.000005 days of what we have now with NASA.
    (of course they were taught by Daniel and most of the moon people these days aren’t)

    Can we move along with other, more pressing debates, such as:

    1. How many times should I forgive someone who sins against me?

    oh right… that one’s sorted.

    Ok. Never mind. All is well.

  • I was wondering if you have ever considered the Lights, as pertaining to their movements that science show where the sun is as pertaining to the constellation that “the sun” is residing in. The moon as to the constellation that “the moon” is residing in; the positioning forms a rod. This is an alignment of the lights; I understand people’s view on the subject. It is one thing to accept something in one’s mind, and it is another thing to disregard what is before them. The question of why, what, how, is before the faces of the people; they willingly need to search within themselves what they want to follow, or what they are willing to consider before their faces. Shallam Megunah

  • I’m going to throw this out there, but I don’t believe the first moon of the year is a crescent or a conjunction. I believe it is the full moon. I’ll explain why. YHWH says to Moses and Aaron: This month (moon) (what moon?) shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month (moon) of the year to you. Then God goes on to instruct them of the upcoming Passover lamb. First of all, one can never be certain when a crescent moon will appear, especially if there is heavy cloud coverage. Secondly, no matter how cloudy it is, you can always see the light of a full moon, even if it is just an ombre effect. The Israelites were led out of Egypt at night and God was their pillar of light leading the way. Some try to say a full moon lit the way, not so. They left Egypt on the 15th at night, that night would have been a conjunction (+ or -) moon. Thirdly, Yeshua would have been crucified when the moon would have been dark. His light was put out, but 3 days later, just like a crescent moon, his light was turned back on. A crescent moon appears 2-3 days after the conjunction. Anyhow, that is how I see it. :)

    • INCORRECT. He did NOT say “this moon”. He said this MONTH shall be the beginning of months. The word MOON (yareach) is never used in Ex 12:2. You know when the conjunction takes place well in advance. These people were not stupid unlike the majority of Americans today where at night they are watching David Letterman instead of outside studying and knowing like the back of their hand the Father’s creation. They had it timed to a science.

  • How about it being as simple as looking at what the Hebrew lexicon says.

    H2320
    Strongs #2320: AHLB#: 2151 (g)

    2151 ac: Renew co: New moon ab: New: The first crescent of the moon as the renewal of the moon, the first day of the month.

  • HOW WOULD WE BE ABLE TO CALL IT NEW IF IT ISN’T WITNESSED

  • I sent a few comments on this topic.. none of them posted???

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