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Stoning our Children?!

Aug 23, 2012 by     8 Comments    Posted under: Uncategorized

Do you believe in stoning your children?

The question is often asked by someone who finds you keeping the commandments. To them, keeping the commandments are akin to being some Neanderthal in the stone ages and the supposed commandment to stone our little helpless children is sometimes given as a proof text.

There is a lot to this, but this topic among some of Paul’s writings is one of the most misunderstood subjects in all the Bible.

Understand first that this is not talking about little children. Small children are under direction and correction of their parents. They are being taught the difference between right and wrong and we are to teach as they grow in the Torah (Deut. 6) the ways of the Father. This is referring to rebellious young adults…I wouldn’t even say teenagers. A man isn’t even counted till age 20(Num.1:3).

After all, Deut. 21 is talking about a rebellious drunkard. Hopefully our “little children” do not have access to alcohol. This is clearly talking about a young adult who has turned away from Torah and is living a lifestyle contrary to it IN THE LAND. The Father demands that the land He has given us remains Holy and pure. Most rebellious children who would turn away from Torah wouldn’t stay in the land anyway, they would leave for the land of the nations (prodigal son) where Torahless lifestyles are more accepted and even encouraged.

But for someone who remains in the land and continues to rebel against Torah and disobey their parents and elders (at the gates, Deut. 21:19), would in fact be guilty of breaking the instructions of the Father and the punishment for that outright disobedience is death.

Sounds harsh, Yup. “You mean, you think we should stone people?” Yup. LOOK AT THE LAWLESSNESS we have in society today. I think we could use a few stonings right about now, don’t you? Notice that there is no respectful healthy fear (Deut. 21:21) of the Father at this point in time. The result is obvious. BUT we are not in the land.

Now the obvious reaction from Christians is John 8 and the woman caught in the act of adultery and the phrase, “let those who are without sin, cast the first stone” We need to examine this further. This was in no way telling people we should not judge others for living in what the Father calls sin.

John tells us that this was a trap(John 8:6). How can we tell?

  1. A matter must be established by 2 or 3 actual witnesses. There were none. (John 8:10)
  2. Yeshua would not have been the proper authority to bring this woman to. He was not sitting as a judge(oh but He will one day)
  3. A man and woman committing adultery were BOTH supposed to be put to death. There was no man here, only a woman.

So in fact when Yeshua told them, “those who are without sin, cast the first stone” he was directly pointing to the sin of these religious leaders who were sinning (breaking Torah) right then and there by bringing a woman accused of adultery without there being 2 or 3 witnesses to establish a matter.

Deuteronomy 19:15
One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

Also know that this snippet of scripture in John 8 is not in the 4 oldest greek manuscripts that make up the New Testament nor is it in the Aramaic Peshitta text. It doesn’t show up until I think the 6th century texts. This snippet of scripture is highly debated as valid in upper circles of Biblical academia. Whether its valid or not, the way it is written, its clear that these religious leaders were trying to trap Jesus/Yeshua outside the Torah. If he would have condemned her, he would have done so without the confirmation of 2-3 witnesses and somewhere running around was a guilty man as well that would have been just worthy of death. If this story did occur, it was clearly a trap like the text states and Jesus/Yeshua saw right through it.

Enjoy the Video.

8 Comments + Add Comment

  • I once had a co-worker try to ‘trap’ me with this very topic. I started out as, “OH, you believe the WHOLE Bible, huh?” (say that in a mocking tone).

    Yes, yes I do. “Oh, okay, so then you believe in stoning your kids, then huh?!” *Cracked my knuckles* ok, here we go…laid the holy scripture smack-down and it was like seeing a deer in headlights.

    Needless to say, the individual never tried to question what I believe again.

  • I heard an interesting take on the woman who was caught in adultery in John 8:3-11.

    Jhn 8:3 NASB – The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman caught in adultery, and having set her in the center of the court,
    Jhn 8:4 NASB – they said to Him, “Teacher, this woman has been caught in adultery, in the very act.
    Jhn 8:5 NASB – “Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women; what then do You say?”
    Jhn 8:6 NASB – They were saying this, testing Him, so that they might have grounds for accusing Him. But Jesus stooped down and with His finger wrote on the ground.
    Jhn 8:7 NASB – But when they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up, and said to them, “He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.”
    Jhn 8:8 NASB – Again He stooped down and wrote on the ground.
    Jhn 8:9 NASB – When they heard it, they began to go out one by one, beginning with the older ones, and He was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the center of the court.
    Jhn 8:10 NASB – Straightening up, Jesus said to her, “Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?”
    Jhn 8:11 NASB – She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on sin no more.”]

    You are right in saying that no one knows what Yeshua wrote in the sand. I heard of an interesting take that I would like to share.

    First, as you had said there were no witnesses and there was no man caught, however, in order for the Scribes and the Pharisees to catch the woman that could of meant a man entrapped her that was hired by the Scribes and the Pharisees or it was a actual Scribes or Pharisee doing the act. Obviously the text does not say.
    So the question would be, who accused her of adultery and brought her to the priest, was it her jealous husband. If she was a temple prostitute, then there would have been no accusing her because temple prostitutes were used that if a man pays her to have sex, then he is actually paying the temple monies to that god that he serves.

    You see this with Judah and Tamar in Genesis 38:11-26, verse 21-24 is key of temple prostitute.
    Gen 38:11 NASB – Then Judah said to his daughter-in-law Tamar, “Remain a widow in your father’s house until my son Shelah grows up”; for he thought, “I am afraid that he too may die like his brothers.” So Tamar went and lived in her father’s house.
    Gen 38:12 NASB – Now after a considerable time Shua’s daughter, the wife of Judah, died; and when the time of mourning was ended, Judah went up to his sheepshearers at Timnah, he and his friend Hirah the Adullamite.
    Gen 38:13 NASB – It was told to Tamar, ” Behold, your father-in-law is going up to Timnah to shear his sheep.”
    Gen 38:14 NASB – So she removed her widow’s garments and covered herself with a veil, and wrapped herself, and sat in the gateway of Enaim, which is on the road to Timnah; for she saw that Shelah had grown up, and she had not been given to him as a wife.
    Gen 38:15 NASB – When Judah saw her, he thought she was a harlot, for she had covered her face.
    Gen 38:16 NASB – So he turned aside to her by the road, and said, ” Here now, let me come in to you”; for he did not know that she was his daughter-in-law. And she said, “What will you give me, that you may come in to me?”
    Gen 38:17 NASB – He said, therefore, “I will send you a young goat from the flock.” She said, moreover, “Will you give a pledge until you send it?”
    Gen 38:18 NASB – He said, “What pledge shall I give you?” And she said, “Your seal and your cord, and your staff that is in your hand.” So he gave them to her and went in to her, and she conceived by him.
    Gen 38:19 NASB – Then she arose and departed, and removed her veil and put on her widow’s garments.
    Gen 38:20 NASB – When Judah sent the young goat by his friend the Adullamite, to receive the pledge from the woman’s hand, he did not find her.
    Gen 38:21 NASB – He asked the men of her place, saying, “Where is the temple prostitute who was by the road at Enaim?” But they said, “There has been no temple prostitute here.”
    Gen 38:22 NASB – So he returned to Judah, and said, “I did not find her; and furthermore, the men of the place said, ‘There has been no temple prostitute here.'”
    Gen 38:23 NASB – Then Judah said, “Let her keep them, otherwise we will become a laughingstock. After all, I sent this young goat, but you did not find her.”
    Gen 38:24 NASB – Now it was about three months later that Judah was informed, ” Your daughter-in-law Tamar has played the harlot, and behold, she is also with child by harlotry.” Then Judah said, “Bring her out and let her be burned!”
    Gen 38:25 NASB – It was while she was being brought out that she sent to her father-in-law, saying, “I am with child by the man to whom these things belong.” And she said, “Please examine and see, whose signet ring and cords and staff are these?”
    Gen 38:26 NASB – Judah recognized them, and said, “She is more righteous than I, inasmuch as I did not give her to my son Shelah.” And he did not have relations with her again.

    I believe Yeshua was reenacting the law of a wife straying away from her husband or a husband jealous of his wife being with another man of what the priest must do to the woman; however, there was one problem before it could be enacted. Where is her husband to accuse her, the Scribes and the Pharisees had a false testimony. But if there was a husband to accuse her then look what it says in Numbers 5:12-31 the law if a woman goes astray from her husband or the husband is jealous of his wife being with another man.

    Numbers 5:12-31
    Num 5:12 NASB – “Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘If any man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him,
    Num 5:13 NASB – and a man has intercourse with her and it is hidden from the eyes of her husband and she is undetected, although she has defiled herself, and there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act,
    Num 5:14 NASB – if a spirit of jealousy comes over him and he is jealous of his wife when she has defiled herself, or if a spirit of jealousy comes over him and he is jealous of his wife when she has not defiled herself,
    Num 5:15 NASB – the man shall then bring his wife to the priest, and shall bring as an offering for her one-tenth of an ephah of barley meal; he shall not pour oil on it nor put frankincense on it, for it is a grain offering of jealousy, a grain offering of memorial, a reminder of iniquity.
    Num 5:16 NASB – ‘Then the priest shall bring her near and have her stand before the LORD,
    Num 5:17 NASB – and the priest shall take holy water in an earthenware vessel; and he shall take some of the dust that is on the floor of the tabernacle and put it into the water.
    Num 5:18 NASB – ‘The priest shall then have the woman stand before the LORD and let the hair of the woman’s head go loose, and place the grain offering of memorial in her hands, which is the grain offering of jealousy, and in the hand of the priest is to be the water of bitterness that brings a curse.
    Num 5:19 NASB – ‘The priest shall have her take an oath and shall say to the woman, “If no man has lain with you and if you have not gone astray into uncleanness, being under the authority of your husband, be immune to this water of bitterness that brings a curse;
    Num 5:20 NASB – if you, however, have gone astray, being under the authority of your husband, and if you have defiled yourself and a man other than your husband has had intercourse with you”
    Num 5:21 NASB – (then the priest shall have the woman swear with the oath of the curse, and the priest shall say to the woman), “the LORD make you a curse and an oath among your people by the LORD’S making your thigh waste away and your abdomen swell;
    Num 5:22 NASB – and this water that brings a curse shall go into your stomach, and make your abdomen swell and your thigh waste away.” And the woman shall say, “Amen. Amen.”
    Num 5:23 NASB – ‘The priest shall then write these curses on a scroll, and he shall wash them off into the water of bitterness.
    Num 5:24 NASB – ‘Then he shall make the woman drink the water of bitterness that brings a curse, so that the water which brings a curse will go into her and cause bitterness.
    Num 5:25 NASB – ‘The priest shall take the grain offering of jealousy from the woman’s hand, and he shall wave the grain offering before the LORD and bring it to the altar;
    Num 5:26 NASB – and the priest shall take a handful of the grain offering as its memorial offering and offer it up in smoke on the altar, and afterward he shall make the woman drink the water.
    Num 5:27 NASB – ‘When he has made her drink the water, then it shall come about, if she has defiled herself and has been unfaithful to her husband, that the water which brings a curse will go into her and cause bitterness, and her abdomen will swell and her thigh will waste away, and the woman will become a curse among her people.
    Num 5:28 NASB – ‘But if the woman has not defiled herself and is clean, she will then be free and conceive children.
    Num 5:29 NASB – ‘This is the law of jealousy: when a wife, being under the authority of her husband, goes astray and defiles herself,
    Num 5:30 NASB – or when a spirit of jealousy comes over a man and he is jealous of his wife, he shall then make the woman stand before the LORD, and the priest shall apply all this law to her.
    Num 5:31 NASB – ‘Moreover, the man will be free from guilt, but that woman shall bear her guilt.'”

    This is a different way of looking at that scene. Only Y’ohovah knows what really happened.

    Shalom, Shalom,

  • So do you wear clothes made from two materials? And do tell me that just means to buy the best quality clothes you can find because that is NOT what it says!

  • The two different kinds of materials are strictly talking about linen and wool. The word used for that text that says linen and wool is Shatnez and its used again in another passage in deut that talks about not wearing fabrics of two different kinds. Its “strictly” talking about linen and wool. So no you dont have to go cut out your stripes out of your flannel t shirt hahaha. God bless ya

  • I suppose you also believe a woman should be stoned to death if her father does not produce a bloody cloth “proving” she was a virgin on her wedding night?

    • That’s not what the bible says. It says if challenged by the husband that she was not a virgin. In these cultures, women got married young. There definitely would have been blood on the wedding night. Traditionally and culturally the bed sheets of their union would go to the wife parents to show that they had kept their daughter pure as they raised her. It was their honor as parents. Then if this was ever challenged by the husband later or anyone for that matter, they could have proof of their honor. The reason this offends you Alan is because our society today has lost all sense of honor and upright tradition.

  • To be clear…not one person on earth actually keeps the commandments. If you claim that you do, you lie. If you fail in ONE you have failed in them all and since we have no temple…we can’t keep them. And don’t give me that business about that being ceremonial Law either. It is the LAW. God never said that we no longer need to keep the whole Law but still need to keep some did He? NO. Read Galatians. WE ARE NO LONGER UNDER THE LAW. Stop deceiving people and putting them under a yoke of slavery!

    • We are no longer under the PUNISHMENT OF THE LAW. That punishment was given to another. You’re right, we have all failed in the law. That is why we need salvation. But once saved, do you continue in lawlessness? 1 John 3:4 don’t confuse Paul.

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