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The TWO Houses of Israel – Judah and Ephraim

Aug 3, 2012 by     22 Comments    Posted under: Uncategorized


A great write-up from my friend Pam who’s herbalist website is listed on the right hand side of my site pages. This woman “gets it” and makes it easy for those new to learning about the Hebrew Roots of scripture to understand it too. So many out there fail to understand that there are TWO HOUSES of Israel. Our Messiah came for ONE HOUSE (Mat 15:24) and when he brings THAT HOUSE back to the land, He will make the TWO houses ONE again! HalleluYah!

Enjoy the Article!

—————————————-
The Two Houses of Israel – Judah and Ephraim
By Pam Staley

The two houses of Israel are mentioned from Genesis to Revelation and a seeker of the Truth will be looking for the total restoration of the full house of Israel soon!
So, let’s find out

“Who is Israel?”

Abraham was called ‘A Hebrew’ (Gen.14:13). Please notice that – he was not called “Jewish.” He was set apart as it is said in Genesis 14:13. Let’s go on. In the story, Abraham begat Isaac – notice Isaac is not called Jewish either, but is a Hebrew as well. And Isaac begat Jacob – also a Hebrew.

Now, with Jacob, the story changes a bit. This is where the name Israelite comes in. In Genesis 32:1-30 we see that Yahweh Himself changes this son’s name from Jacob to Israel because he ‘struggled with Elohim and persevered.’ So, in short, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob…were all Hebrews. Jacob’s name was changed to Israel and his descendants came to be known as ‘Israelites’.

Jacob had twelve sons, known as the twelve tribes of Israel. They are listed in Genesis 30:

  1. Rueben
  2. Simeon
  3. Levi
  4. Judah
  5. Zebulun
  6. Dan
  7. Gad
  8. Asher
  9. Issachar
  10. Naphtali
  11. Joseph
  12. Benjamin

Please note…all of these sons of Jacob were Israelites!

One son, however, whose name was Judah can be called “Jewish” but he was also a Hebrew, an Israelite. It is from Judah that the name Jew derives from due to the return of the tribes to the city of Jerusalem from Babylon in 576 BCE. This is when they were first called “Jews”. So we can see that all Jews are Hebrews, but not all Hebrews are Jews.

Let’s fast forward to the Exodus. Was Moses Jewish? In Exodus 2, versus 1-10 we see that he was a Hebrew, a descendant of Levi and one who led all of the tribes out of Egypt. His protege, Joshua, was a descendant of Joseph (and Joseph was called Ephraim) and it was Joshua who actually led the tribes into the promised land, the land of Canaan.

After the Israelites entered the Promised Land, they were ruled by Judges and by Kings and chose to follow the pagan practices instead of obeying Yahweh’s laws. For this reason, Yahweh separated the tribes and took the ten northern tribes (read 1 Kings chapters 11 and 12) away and called them the NORTHERN KINGDOM, or Israel or Ephraim-Joseph. The two tribes of Benjamin and Judah were left in the southern part of the land and became known as Jews or the SOUTHERN KINGDOM.

After the Northern and Southern Kingdoms were separated by Yahweh, they continued to rebel against the god of their forefathers as well as to fight and struggle with each other, their brothers. The Northern Kingdom, known as Israel or Ephraim, set up their own priesthood, their own altar to Yahweh and their own set of Feast Days! In I Kings 12:25-33 during Jeroboam’s reign over the ten tribes of the north, he became fearful that his people would continue to go down to the Southern Kingdom under his rival, King Rehoboam, to celebrate the Feast Days of Yahweh as they were commanded to do so in Exodus 23:14-17.

So, to keep his empire in tact, and his people home where they belonged, he developed the “Golden Calf Worship System” He built two temples and strategically placed them in the Northern Kingdom. One temple was located in the City of Dan near the upper Northern border close to Mt. Hermon, and the other temple was in the City of Bethel on the Southern border that divided the two Kingdoms. Amazingly, after all they had come thru, the focus of worship in these temples was a “golden calf!” Torah worship of Yahweh was being mixed with the revived Egyptian “golden calf” Sun-god religion!

Now let’s look at the book of Hosea. Hosea was a prophet to the Northern Kingdom only (remember, the Northern Kingdom was also called Israel, Ephraim, Joseph or Jacob). Hosea prophesied over Israel (Ephraim) their judgment and future restoration. When the prophet was told to marry a prostitute it was symbolic of Ephraim and his unfaithfulness and backsliding. When children came along, Hosea gave those children names that were a prophecy of Yahweh’s judgment.

Hosea Chapters 1-2 summarizes these judgments. Yahweh told Hosea to take Gomer, the daughter of Dibliam and she bore him three children. The first was named Jezreel, the second Loruhamah, and the third named Loammi. These names reflected the judgments of Yahweh on the Northern Kingdom. Jezreel represented the ‘ceaseing of the kingdom of hte house of Israel; Loruhama reflected in her name that Yahweh would have no mercy on the house of Israel and Loammi declared that ‘Israel’ would no longer be the people of Yahweh!

However, if we read on, it was only for a time that Yahweh would divorce His people. They lost their identity, they behave and look like everyone else in the nations. They are not like their brother Judah (Jews) who have always been distinguishable! Judah has maintained their identity in the twelve tribes of Israel.

In Ezekiel 37:11-23 it declares that Israel return to the land and in Jeremiah chapter 31 we can read that Israel also returns! Now take a look at Luke 15 and understand if you will the meaning of the parables of Yahshua concerning the lost sheep, lost coin, lost son, – all saying the same thing! The younger son lost his identity, while his older brother (Judah) looked after the land. They are still looking after the land, still holding true to the commandments of Yahweh, still looking for Ephraim to return.

So, again, who is Israel? Can we know who they are? Will we know them by the way they look, the way they act or the fruit of their hand? How will we, and all peoples, know that Ephraim is being called home?

Jeremiah 31:31 declares that a new covenant (renewed) with the house of Israel and the house of Judah will be written – “I will write My law (torah) within them, on their hearts I will write it.” This means that they will want to keep Yahweh’s laws, commandments and statutes Romans 2:12-16. And in Ezekiel 37:4 it says, “I will put My Spirit within you.” Mmmmm, new creation? born again? Feasible.

Read in Ezekiel 28:25 where Yahweh declares, “When I shall have gathered the HOUSE of Israel from the people among whom they are scattered, and shall be sanctified in them in the sight of the heathen, then shall they dwell in their land that I have given to my servant Jacob.” WOW! Yahweh will gather those people from among the heathen nations and He will place them in the land of Jacob!! These people will be known as Israel because they live, breathe and walk in His commandments, given from the beginning of time! They will be sanctified!

So look around you … do you see a company of people beginning to be called out of the established man-made doctrines? Do you see a company of people, individuals, families trying to return to the commandments, learning how to keep the Holy days, His holy days, and who have the Ruach HaKodesh, the Spirit of the Living Elohim living within them? Think on this – In Acts 2, both Jew and gentile received that poured out Spirit; both become righteous, both keep His commandments, both hold fast to His Holy Days!

So again I say, look around….are YOU a part of this House?

~ blessings ~ Pam

22 Comments + Add Comment

  • Most people in our movement seem to understand that there are two houses. What we need to be careful of, in my opinion, is who we are calling Judah.

    http://www.gaytlvguide.com/component/content/article/12-fp-articles/63-gay-pride-parade-tel-aviv-2013-june-7

    This is not Judah, but they are in our land. Judah is in the land, but they are not in control of it. And apparently we wont be reunited into it until after the second coming.

    I would like to nip at another issue at hand here though. A woman who would try to take it upon herself to teach men is exactly the opposite of what is pleasing to Yah. You can’t really argue this one and I see a lot of women teachers teaching roots today. Apparently, it is fine for older women to teach younger women how to be scriptural women and to teach on non scriptural issues but not to teach scriptures especially to men or to any assembly.

    What’s your opinion on this? I honestly think we shouldn’t be promoting this kind of thing.

    This is a good read I just stumbled on the other day that strengthened my perspective a bit:

    http://weareisrael.org/men-and-women/place-of-safety/

    http://weareisrael.org/men-and-women/womans-place-2/

    http://weareisrael.org/men-and-women/womans-place-part-3/

    http://weareisrael.org/men-and-women/a-womans-place-4/

    Peace,
    Jimi Treen

    • Again we disagree greatly Jimi. While I like Michael Didier and his website at weareisrael.org, I totally disagree with his views on women he has posted up over there and I’ve told him as much. Let me give you just ONE quick example: He states that women are not commanded to wear TzitZit because the hebrew obviously is translated as a command to the sons of Israel. Well if that is the case, Hebrew women can also obviously eat pork because the command to wear TzitZit is the EXACT SAME Hebrew as the starting off of the Dietary laws. His views of women and their roles are distorted for large number of reasons.

      Anytime anyone tries to tell me that women are to remain silent and not be teachers, they always quote Paul. First off, we don’t see any of those directives given by Paul in the Torah. Paul again here is confused as Bible scholars have noted that Paul is replying to a letter that we don’t see in scripture. He is quite obviously pointing to a PARTICULAR woman who has become a nuisance and acted outside of her covering inside her household and is taking on responsibilities of the Husband.

      We see plenty of examples of leading women in the Old and New Testament as well as the Apocrypha. Don’t get me wrong, the man is the head of the household and is to be the leader of the family but our wives are not to sit in a corner with a rag in their mouth. Give me a break.

      But yes I do agree that the government of Israel is not Judah. The Judah I am ALWAYS referring to are the people in that land who keep the commandments. I hear tons of stories of people over there coming out of orthodox Judaism and throwing off Talmudic traditions and accepting Yeshua as Messiah. Just like there is an awakening here, there is an awakening there with our brother.

      • Hmmm, good insight with the tzitzit, I need to study it through more.

        As far as women though, I think it’s the other way around. I’m not belittling a woman’s role, I just want scripture to define it.

        Some talking points:

        1. New testament authors commonly address BROTHERS, why?

        2. (1Ti 2:12) But I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, rather, to be in silence.
        Can you explain this away in a better way? Are you saying that he is speaking of a specific woman?

        3. Apocrypha? Hairy subject in itself.

        4. “Don’t get me wrong, the man is the head of the household and is to be the leader of the family but our wives are not to sit in a corner with a rag in their mouth.”
        The way you worded this is fallacious, these are serious topics and they deserve a better approach. When you use tactics like these you are no better than the corporate media for example. Paul never mentions a rag. Didier states that silence most likely had to do with the separation of men and women in the assemblies. Regardless, Sha’ul seems to not permit any woman to teach any man, that is the issue at hand here.

        5. Bring up a word search in your e-sword for, “children of Israel.” I’ll admit that this topic may just be either the next big leap for messianic kind or a waste of time but lets examine it for the love of God’s ways. Is it possible that Moses is establishing the Torah with all of the heads (sons) of Israel in these verses in order that they may execute right ruling with anything under their covering. Is it possible that this is what our creator intended for us. Speak to the coverings of Israel because the coverings cover what need covering just as our bridegroom covers us. It seems to fit the lesson plan.

        The way i’m seeing this probably being spoken is, for example, “Speak to the men (leaders) of Israel, this is the Torah regarding this subject, it applies to these people so rule rightly and teach on this subject with those under you.”

        Are you seeing this!? Apply the framework that the Scriptures establish, It’s simply stunning. Have a look and let me know if you see a verse where it doesn’t fit. Even in verses about women, “Speak to the sons of Israel, when a woman…” Tzitzit, “Speak to the sons of Israel, where tzitzit to remind yourselves of my TRUE Torah so that you may rule rightly because to you is given dominion.” Pork, “Speak to the sons of Israel, don’t eat pork, not you or anyone under your covering nor any stranger within your gates.”

        Halleluyah brother, I like talking with you. I’ll be back soon to check your response.

        Peace,
        Jimi Treen

  • I wanted this included as well:

    http://weareisrael.org/men-and-women/man-woman-2/

    Thanks,
    Jimi Treen

  • I loved the article! Very well laid out and explained.

    I do have one question. I noticed that you said that they were not known as the Jews until after the return from Babylon, but I noticed mentions of the term “Jews” in 2 Kings 16 and in the book of Esther. Would it be safer to say that they weren’t known as Jews until after the Northern/Southern tribe split?

    I realize this is kinda picky … just thought I would bring that up.

    Thx,

  • Just a thought: Joel 2:28 says your sons and daughters (and daughters) will prophesy. Rev. 19:10 says the testimony of Yeshua is the spirit of prophecy. Prophecy is not always a future event, it can be also be defined as an inspired utterance of a prophet. Who is a prophet- one who speaks the words Yahweh tells them to say (and does not take people away from Torah).

    • I’m not sure if this was in response to me but regarding your comment,

      Not permitting a woman to teach a man does not keep her from prophesying (future events) to anybody and everybody or prophesying (as in teaching) any women. Older women of our faith are actually encouraged to teach the younger women on how to be a good scriptural woman.

      So I don’t see a problem with this theory based on the verses you provided but let’s keep this going.

      Peace,
      Jimi Treen

      • The only additional thing I submit is how I have viewed, for a long time now, that when Paul does not permit a woman to teach a man is that he is talking about the master/disciple (mentor/mentee) relationship. It would be highly inappropriate to have that level of familiarity with someone of the opposite sex who is not one’s spouse. I have never taken it to mean prohibition against leading people in ‘the way’. I mean he spoke to Balaam through a mule, so how much more valuable is a female human.

  • I agree KS. I don’t see any Biblical standing of a woman being the covering for her household or other households. I have no problem with a woman teaching and like all teachings, they should be tested against scripture.

    I see no commandments in Torah that prevent a woman from teaching. And we know even from our last Torah portion that we are not to add or take away from scripture.

    Deut. 4:2
    Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

    And since Paul is probably the most “misunderstood” writer in the NT, its obvious he would not be adding new rules or commandments. We are relying on texts written probably first in Greek or Aramaic, then translated to Latin and then finally to English. Something doesn’t compute so I think its safe to say there is more to the story than what our current translations seem to convey….as is often the case.

  • N2T, that was such an excellent way to put it. If Paul were to ‘add to’ the Word of God he’d be doing the exact same thing that Rabbinic Judaism has done putting fences around fences that the outer most fence doesn’t even resemble any commandment in the Torah.

  • KS,

    What proof can you find to support this claim? Regarding the mule, he used the mule like a sock puppet. I haven’t seen God do that to a human in Scripture. Also, women were last in creation and first to fall.

    (Gen 3:16) To the woman He said, “I greatly increase your sorrow and your conception – bring forth children in pain. And your desire is for your husband, and he does rule over you.”

    And he does rule over you! So Yah gave his Torah to the men of his creation so that they could rule. Check out this site I pulled up for you regarding the Hebrew word ben:

    http://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Lexicon.show/ID/H1121/ben.htm

    Scroll down to usage and cycle through the many pages of Occurrences. The proper translation seems to be sons.

    New2Torah,

    If the law was given to men to enforce then the entirety of scripture is an occurrence of women not teaching men. Regarding your personal opinion about women teaching:

    “I have no problem with a woman teaching and like all teachings, they should be tested against scripture.”

    How does what you personally think mean anything against the truth outlined in Scripture? To be frank, and you know this, our opinions are irrelevant. We are breaking down false doctrine here, not defending it. That’s not to say that I am right, it’s just that it’s the glory of queens to search these matters out. Oops, did I say queens? Because I certainly meant kings.

    Regarding this statement:

    “And since Paul is probably the most “misunderstood” writer in the NT”
    This is a fallacy, you’ve set your foundation on sand already. This argument could be used to support any false doctrine anybody wants to come up with regarding Sha’ul’s writings.

    “its obvious he would not be adding new rules or commandments.”
    This can equally support both sides of this discussion. He isn’t permitting what should already be obvious.

    “We are relying on texts written probably first in Greek or Aramaic, then translated to Latin and then finally to English.”
    Fallacy, Aramaic primacy is still not proven enough to stand on. Furthermore, are you suggesting that when modern scholars translate his writings that they translate the Greek into Latin and than they finally translate it into English? Hmm, really?

    “Something doesn’t compute so I think its safe to say there is more to the story than what our current translations seem to convey….as is often the case.”
    Maybe, but you have to prove these things or your opinion is invalid and essentially a complete lie. Regardless, this argument support both sides.

    Thanks guys,
    Jimi Treen

  • Jimi, I completely validate the male as headship in a family whether the male be the young woman’s father or a married woman’s husband. I’m pretty sure I never disputed that fact. What I will not validate is the assertion by others that every male has headship over every woman. That is the implication by saying no woman can teach any man. If a wife has the full support of her husband and she has an opportunity to teach and there are men willing to hear then there is no difficulty here, no sin has been committed. One who has a problem with a woman teaching should either take it up with the woman’s father/spouse or just steer clear of such a gathering.

    • What we are discussing here may not be an issue of salvation. However if a woman teaching men on TORAH is transgression of Torah then it is sin and we can not allow our beloved women to sin in ignorance. We also can not let our masculine (assuming you are a man) views distort what is proper for the feminine role. Although both roles are as one in the eyes of our Creator, both are still very different and should be lived out accordingly.

      What will clear this discussion very quickly is if we solve the proper translation of the Hebrew word BEN. Because prohibition becomes clear when this word in translated as SONS.

      (Deu 11:19) ‘And you shall teach them to your SONS, speaking of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise up,

      etc.. etc…

      Let’s analyze this passage as well:

      Eph 5:22 Wives, subject yourselves to your own husbands, as to the Master.
      Eph 5:23 Because the husband is head of the wife, as also the Messiah is head of the assembly, and He is Saviour of the body.
      Eph 5:24 But as the assembly is subject to Messiah, so also let the wives be to their own husbands in every respect.
      Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, as Messiah also did love the assembly and gave Himself for it,
      Eph 5:26 in order to set it apart and cleanse it with the washing of water by the Word,
      Eph 5:27 in order to present it to Himself a splendid assembly, not having spot or wrinkle or any of this sort, but that it might be set-apart and blameless.

      Wives submit to your husbands in every respect as the assembly submits to Messiah. The assembly does not teach the Messiah who is the word made flesh, the Messiah teaches the assembly. Husbands love your wives and give yourselves to them in devotion in order to set them apart by cleansing them with the Word so you may present a spotless family. This all can be deduced by messianic the archetype.

      And this:

      2 Timothy 2:2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful MEN, who shall be able to teach others also.

      And this:

      1Co 14:34 Let your women be silent in the assemblies, for they are not allowed to speak, but let them subject themselves, AS THE TORAH ALSO SAYS.
      1Co 14:35 And if they (students) wish to learn whatever, let them ask their own husbands (teachers) at home, for it is improper for women to speak in an assembly.

      Listen closely.

      1Co 14:36 Or did the word of Elohim go out from you? Or did it reach only to you?

      Or did the word of Elohim go out from you? – Was it from you that other assemblies received the Gospel? Are you the mother assembly? that you should have rules, and orders, and customs, different from all others; and set yourselves up for a model to be copied by all the assemblies?

      Or did it reach only to you? – Are you the only assembly of God? Are there not many others founded before you that have no such customs, and permit no such disorders?

      1Co 14:37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge what I write to you, that they are a COMMAND OF THE MASTER.

      One more for today:

      Tit 2:3 the older WOMEN likewise are to be set-apart in behaviour, not slanderers, not given to much wine, TEACHERS of what is good,
      Tit 2:4 in order for them to train the young WOMEN to love their husbands, to love their children,
      Tit 2:5 to be sensible, blameless, workers at home, good, subject to their own husbands, in order that the word of Elohim is not evil spoken of.

      A women not being able to teach a man does not imply that every man has headship over every woman that is a fallacy. Is it proper for a woman to speak in an assembly? Then is it proper for a woman to teach in an assembly? Can she run her own assembly? Can she run an internet assembly by posting her teachings? Would it even be considered and assembly?

      Regarding your remark about avoiding any gathering of believers, we are one body not to be divided. If I find an assembly of believers eating ham should I not try and correct their delusion? Also, you say this as if it’s a solution to the issue at hand when it isn’t.

      We are to ignore our opinions in cases like these in order to find the truth unobstructed. There is no reason to pretend like the Scriptures are now solved and there is nothing left to refine.

      • I do not agree with any of your interpretations on this subject, Jimi.

        If you’re interpretation is correct, then the command to abstain from pork is only for men. That is just insane.

        Just because “Ben” is SOMETIMES translated as “SONS” does not mean that is the case. While “BEN” is translated over 2900 times as “SONS”, its also translated over 1500 times as “CHILDREN”.

        YOU HAVE TO KNOW THE CONTEXT!

        EXAMPLE: Genesis 36:25 uses the word “BEN” to refer to the DAUGHTER of Anah.

        You are following a convoluted interpretation of scripture that is used to ultimately denigrate the position of a woman to a mere house slave owned by a man.
        NO PLACE in the TORAH will you find ANY COMMAND that specifically forbids a woman from teaching Torah. The only command that would prevent a woman from teaching Torah is IF her husband expressly forbid it as stated in Numbers 30.

        Let me also add that the Proverbs 31 woman is a business owner and land owner as described in scripture. The verse you are quoting from PAUL AND PAUL ALONE are mis-interpreted. He should NOT be our final authority on this topic.

        If you don’t like when I post teachings from women on my site, you might find other blogs who share in your scriptural interpretation more appropriate.

  • Genesis 12:21 “…in all that Sarah has said unto you, listen unto her voice;…” (TORAH)

    Yah instructed Abraham to LISTEN to his WIFE. Note, what Sarah was saying would alter or charter a new path in Abraham’s life – the father of our faith…

    Thus I believe as N2T does. As long as the husband clears it, she shouldn’t be deprived from sharing, considring Yah redirected Abraham back to what Sarah initially said…

    Blessings

  • Let’s not forget Deborah, a judge & a prophetess. A Torah judge. Probably sat at the city gate, where people assembled, to do her judging and prophet speak.

    In all of the Torah’s positive and negative commandments (do this/don’t do that), I admit, that I will not find one that says ‘let a woman speak at your assemblies’, however you will also not be able to find one that says ‘do not let a women speak in your assemblies’. You cannot imply the inverse of a conditional statement, meaning “teach your sons” does not mean ‘do not teach your daughters’. You are trying to make it say more than it says.

  • I appreciate your comments Jimi. I’ve raised the same issue on this blog before. I wrote an article some years ago called The Role of Women in Church and Society, and I invited other Torah keepers to read it some months back, but unfortunately I received no feedback. I’ve kept going back to the scriptures to see if I’m wrong, but I just find more and more evidence that women are not to teach or have authority over men, even in the Torah as Paul says! What’s more, as we head further into the latter days, we see women taking more and more authority upon themselves both religiously and in the secular realm, just as we see all other types of ungodliness increasing. I’m glad to find I’m not the only Hebrew Roots believer with this understanding. If you or anyone else would like to read this article, e-mail me at stuartalive@googlemail.com, and I’ll send a copy over.

  • Also, based on what many people have said on this thread, there does seem to be some misunderstanding in what we “gender role keepers” are saying. Women can and certainly should discuss scripture with their husbands (1 Corinthians 14:35), or if they are unmarried I assume with fathers and brothers as well, because the admonition is only for public teaching. The Hebrew Roots Bible actually makes this clearer than the King James.

    And I do not allow a woman to debate publicly nor to usurp the authority of a man, but to be in silence. (1 Timothy 2:12 HRB)

    A woman can only teach a man when she is in association with her husband, and in a non-public setting.

    And this one began to speak boldly in the synagogue. And hearing him Priscilla and Aquila took him to their home and more accurately expounded the way of Yahshua to him. (Acts 18:26 HRB)

    • Again, no verses from the Torah. Only verses from Paul. Over and over again I see examples of BOTH Men and Women teaching and instructing. Both MEN AND WOMEN can teach something in error. Test everything according to the scriptures. You’re arguments are based on sexist theologies of the early Roman church. We’ve had to break with a lot of misconceptions coming out of Christianity but many of us are still holding on to some.

      Paul remains the most misunderstood author in all of the Bible.

      • Acts 18:26 involves a married couple referred to six times in scripture, not two women (see Acts 18:2). I don’t know how you arrived at the conclusion that they were both women. My understanding is entirely scriptural, not sexist, whereas I would say that yours is feminist, and is the view that is found in most of the pagan churches, not vice versa. The fact that feminism has been embraced by the world in these latter days just goes to show that it is against the purposes of YHWH.

        As has already been stated in this thread, Paul refers to the Torah in 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 when he says that women are not to teach in the congregations and are to be in subjection (not that they are to do whatever men say, but that they cannot teach or have authority over them). Paul’s words are a double witness to the Torah. What teachings was he referring to? You can’t say that don’t exist just because you can’t find them; Paul states that they are there and I for one believe him.

        The fact is that they ARE there but they are not explicit, probably because they didn’t need to be as everyone recognised our gender roles from time immemorial. Perhaps YHWH chose to speak clearly through Paul because the mystery of iniquity was about to begin and He knew that this was a subject that had to be clarified for these latter days. Numbers 30 shows the importance of male pre-eminence, but it can also be found in other places throughout the Torah for those with a discerning mind. Just because there are no clear-cut commands in the Torah is not a problem for me, for I believe in the whole word of God including the New Testament, which was specifically written for our days, when certain timeless understandings would have been lost.

        To reiterate, this is not about personal agendas, but about honouring YHWH and not having confusion in the congregations (1 Timothy 2:12-14).

  • Again….all Paul…no Torah to back up your position. Numbers 30 will easily allow a woman to teach if her HUSBAND consents. There is ZERO commandments from our Father preventing a woman to teach in Torah and your verses you continue to push by Paul are being misunderstood as Peter states in 2 Peter 3:16.

    Unlearned and Unstable.

    A nice discussion but one that is not going to produce fruit. Any further comments will be deleted.

    Judges 4:4
    And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.

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