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Raising you Paul

Sep 4, 2012 by     44 Comments    Posted under: Uncategorized

There was another really good comment on my site the other day and I wanted to share it. So many times when debating a “christian” about Torah and a True Walk with the Messiah, it turns into like a high stakes poker game to see who will call first. Verses are thrown around like poker chips and I wonder how often we read them in context.

So many people pick and choose the verses they think proves their point without trying to validate them.

So in a recent argument, a “christian” quotes Paul from Galatians and Romans to show that the law was done away with. I have said it over and over again. Any verse you see from Paul that SEEMS to say that the law is done away with, is only referring to 1 of 2 things. He is either talking about the law of man; the traditions and doctrines of man OR the law of sin and death meaning the PUNISHMENT for the sins we have committed. Our Messiah took on the punishment of our transgressions and nailed them to the cross. NOT THE LAW itself.

And so to prove the point that Paul was not talking about the law(TORAH) itself, a reader posted the following comment:


I see your Pauline-end-of-story-proof-text and I raise you 9…

Romans 2:13
“For it is not the hearers of the LAW who are righteous before God, but the doers of the LAW who will be justified.”

Romans 3:31
“Do we then make void the LAW through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the LAW.”

Romans 7:12
“Wherefore the LAW is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.”

Romans 7:22
“For I delight in the LAW of God according to the inward man.”

Romans 7:14
“For we know that the LAW is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.”

Romans 7:16
“But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the LAW, confessing that the LAW is good.”

Romans 7:25
“I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the LAW of God; but with the flesh the LAW of sin.”

Romans 8:7
“Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the LAW of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.”

1 Timothy 1:8
“But we know that the LAW is good, if a man use it lawfully;”

Questions for you to prayerfully consider: Do you find it strange that every single verse you quote is from Paul? Does it strike you as odd that Paul completely contradicts what we see written in the rest of the Book? Doesn’t it raise a red flag that these verses even seem to contradict what Paul himself said (and did) elsewhere in Scripture? Peter warned us about this long ago…

2 Peter 3:14
“14 Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. 15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the IGNORANT AND UNSTABLE twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of LAWLESS(TORAHLESS) PEOPLE and lose your own stability.”

If YOU WISH to continue quoting a few choice texts of Paul to justify a LAWLESS lifestyle, you do so at your own risk. These popularly used proof-texts cannot be elevated to a stature above the rest of Scripture (especially the words that came from our Messiah’s own mouth), they must be interpreted and understood in a way that brings them in line with the rest of Word.

Matthew 5:17
“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

I encourage you to continue to work these things out humbly and with an open heart. We’ve all been exactly where you are at one point or another and know just how difficult it can be to consider that we’ve messed things up and gotten it all wrong.


Amen and amen!

44 Comments + Add Comment

  • When I used 2 Peter 3:16,17 to an “anti-Pauline”, I was told that it was not written by Peter and that I should do more research. What next!?

    • LOL! Not written by Peter??? Who was it written by? ITS IN THE BOOK OF PETER!

      Maybe your friend can enlighten me.

      • Ok, I just read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Epistle_of_Peter

        Popycock! Pointy headed theologians at their best. You’re friend is deluded and grasping at straws.

        • It’s probably the same pointy headed theologians that came up with the Documentary Hypothesis (that Moses didn’t really write the Torah) or that Daniel didn’t really write Daniel. They’ve got to weaken people’s perception of scripture to promote their doctrines. Unfortunately it works.

  • Okay, I accept the fact that the Feast Days are better than our pagan-roots holidays, I accept that we should eat clean vs. unclean food, I realize now that sunday is not the Sabbath…but, if we are to accept the entire Law how can we expect to do the following (from Deuteronomy chapter 25):

    5: If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husband’s brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husband’s brother unto her.
    11: When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets:
    12: Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her.

    and there are even more chapters and verses. Do we just pick and choose which ones we will continue to follow? Or, is it just the Feasts and Sabbath? The above verses sound very similar to what Islam continues today. They are accused of living in ancient times. As Christians, we already don’t/or shouldn’t lie, steal, cheat, commit adultery, fornicate, have idols, etc. and love God with all our heart and soul. I’m confused…just exactly what parts are we still supposed to observe and what are we not supposed to? It’s either all or nothing – right? I mean, if His Word never changes then shouldn’t it all still be kept? HELP!

    • Awesome. You give two examples that you don’t understand. Let me first say that reason some of these commands are so foreign to us is because we are so DETACHED from the instructions the Father gave his children to live by. 21st century pop media details to us how we are to look and what is acceptable social behavior, and not the words of our Father.

      Deut 25:5
      Yes, as crazy as this sounds, the brother of the husband has the right and really the obligation to take on his brothers wife. This is not a forceful marriage. Keep in mind that one of the worst fates to fall upon a woman in that day was to be a young widow. The chances of her being remarried were slim unless she was very young and beautiful and so she was facing a life of poverty if her husband died. So imagine being a young or middle aged widow with kids and facing a life of wondering how you will make it now that your bread winner (husband) is dead. THAT IS WHY we see all throughout the Torah and even the NT of care and attention to be given to widows. Widows and orphans are a TOP priority for our Father. This command seems to be one of the ways he helps to alleviate that problem.

      Deut 25:11-12
      One of the repeating themes I’m seeing as I learn the Torah more and more is that the Father does not like it when we take the procreating ability away from man or beast. He said to be fruitful and multiply and damaging a mans “stones” is an attempt to interfere with that directive. Can a woman defend her husband? Sure! Just stay away from the “family jewels” while doing it.

      There are many commandments that can’t be kept simply because we have no temple and we are not in the land. But we will be again one day. It might be good to know what they are so they come as no surprise when we get there. Like I said before, the reason many of these commandments seem so out of touch with us is because we have let 21st century American pop culture dictate acceptable social behavior. As these last days continue, more and more you will see pop social circles berate and criticize the Father’s commandments and instructions as antiquated and downright barbarian.

      I hope that helps. 🙂

  • Ohhhhh, that’s what the ‘secrets’ are…thanks (but we’d be jailed if we DID cut a woman’s hand off for it, or have more than one spouse, or have slaves). Then it’s the Feast days, Sabbath, clean/unclean food, Christmas and Easter the only contention between modern Christianity and Hebrew Roots folks? I don’t understand what modern Christianity (churchianity) is all afuss about then. Seems plain as day to me.

    • Slaves are another highly misunderstood topic in scripture.

      Deuteronomy 24:7
      “If a man be found stealing any of his brethren of the children of Israel, and maketh merchandise of him, or selleth him; then that thief shall die; and thou shalt put evil away from among you.”

      Our Father hates slavery but many of our translations will make you think he is ok with it. Study of those verses creates understanding. 🙂

      Oh and as far as having more than one spouse, it was clear from the beginning that He created one man and one woman. Those with multiple wives usually have major issues in the family unit.

    • Jennifer, Remember our heavenly Father is a lot smarter than us, so do not attack something you don’t understand at first. Maybe you should start doing a Torah Cycle reading every Shabbat Evert or Friday evening to get a grasp of what the Father is instructed in His Torah. There are some really good Torah teachings out there on the internet that can help break down these Torah instruction into easily understandable concepts that can be applied today, plus I believe Zack is doing a good job in providing the answers to your questions. But please keep sarcastic comments about the Creators instructions at bay because where were you when Yahweh laid the foundations of the world and created all things. And Pleas be very careful, because that same Creator provides the air you breath every day!


  • Honestly thats one detail that I struggle with and I know many people also that can agree, that there arent really any places in scripture that I can think of that really really condemn the multiple wives thing. So thats frustrating. It just seems like He didnt really interfere with this. He didnt condone it, but it doesnt appear He abhores it either….? @Jennifer~ I relate to your strugglin with these questions, but we can only do as much as we can, as we learn and return to His ways. I have no doubt He will clear up all doubt once He gets back, 🙂

    • speaking on the multiple wives thing, I have been reading through genesis… and stumbled on this verse, which made me think… did Sarah here, admit that she had sinned against Abraham for asking him to lay with her servant?
      Gen 16:4 And he went in to Hagar, and she conceived. And when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was despised in her eyes.
      Gen 16:5 And Sarai said to Abram, “My wrong be upon you! I gave my female servant into your bosom. And when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes. Let יהוה judge between you and me.”

      • Allen yes, and also the obvious to me was, the 12 tribes of Judah is from (what is it) 3 diff women???
        Rachel, Leah, and Billah who had Dan and Naphtali. There you have the picture of Jacob having Leah and Rachel. And never am I questioning the Almighty, and I dont allow things like this to be a major divisive issue with me, but when I come to them, I like to try to study them out and let Him reveal knowledge how He pleases. As for the specific situation you stated, to me, we see here another picture of Adam and Eve, and the woman presenting this picture for a solution or idea, and then pointing the finger at the man for following through. So maybe thats why she says let YHVH judge between them…..

        • Omygosh, here I go again. I always do that…Correction; 12 tribes of Israel!!! not Judah. Im sure you knew what I meant. 🙂

  • Hey may be they needed multiple wives in order to proliferate the earth at that time. Who are we to question the Almighty, lets get over these minor issues and be greatly appreciative for the fact that we have been able to be grafted into Israel and be a covenant people of the Most High, Yahweh. Also lets thank the Father in Yahshua name for this Hebraic understanding that has (for me at least) facilitated us to be set apart from this corrupt world that will be judged, HalleluYah!

  • James,
    I’m sorry you thought I was attacking – please forgive me. I wasn’t…I was trying to comprehend. Zac helps me understand and I value his insight.

    • I understood what you were trying to say. No worries. Maybe James thought you were being sarcastic.

  • You speak the truth. You do pick and choose scripture to try to prove your point but it doesn’t work because you are so so so wrong.

  • Just face it – many “Christians” simply don’t want to be obedient. They want the “cotton-candy” gospel that tells them if they simply “believe” that Jesus died for them they will be saved. This is just the beginning of salvation, of course. Just Read the Bible! Sure, Jesus Christ paid for our transgressions but we have to work our salvation with Him at the helm. A true believer obeys Jesus’ commands, denies himself daily, and symbolically picks up the cross to crucify their own fleshly desires and do the will of the Father. Is it not the Lord’s will that we obey His Law and commands? I mean how obvious is that!

  • Samantha, I sent you an email at your yahoo account you use on my site explaining to you why I will not allow you to post on this site anymore. You have ignored questions, refused to acknowledge questions posed at you and refused to debate. A simple webcam cost around $12 at best buy. If you wish to keep posting on this site, you have to first debate me on youtube. Heck, I’ll even pay for the webcam for you.

    But its obvious that you are not interested in debates in scripture. So feel free to go post on another website.

  • Go ahead and delete until your heart is content. It just proves that you are afraid of my and that you think I am right.

    • My dear Samantha. I already told you that you are more than welcome to come on my Youtube Channel and explain all the ways I am wrong and you are right. I’ll even buy your webcam. Or go find a pastor to explain it to me and I’ll buy his webcam. But we did answer your questions and you ignored the answers. Again, my youtube channel is open for you to appear anytime you wish.

      • You ate too funny.

        • Anyone who is as passionate as you are, about what you believe in Samantha, should be ready, able, and more than willing to take a stand, and defend YOUR Savior and His Word to anyone, for the entire world to see. So when you decide to actually bring forth your evidence to show yourself approved
          (2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. ) we will all be waiting with open arms. Shalom

  • You know, Samantha, there must be some reason you’re still here. If you didn’t care you’d be long gone. There are plenty of sites that will tell you what you want to hear. I think you should consider taking New2Torah up on his offer to converse with you face to face (webcam style). He’s not going to bite. We all want what’s best for people here, you included. I think a lot of us here, before we came to Torah, were where you’re at. It’s natural to get defensive when everything you’ve grown up believing is suddenly challenged. I truly apologize for offending you by any previous insensitive remarks. It’s easy to forget there’s a human at the other end of the computer. Shalom

    • Thank you. The way I see it is you all interpret the Scriptures one way and Christians interpret it another. We are both saved so there is no need to say that Christians are not going to heaven. Only God knows the heart of a person and we should not be quick to judge them.

      • Sorry Samantha, we disagree. Yes God does know the heart. Look what the Bible says about the Heart.

        Jeremiah 17:9
        The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

        Matthew 15:19
        For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.

        The Father says to NOT do what is right in your OWN EYES but only What is RIGHT in the SIGHT of the Father!!

        Deuteronomy 12:8
        Ye shall not do after all the things that we do here this day, every man whatsoever is right in his own eyes.

        Deuteronomy 12:28
        Observe and hear all these words which I COMMAND thee, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee for ever, when thou doest [that which is] good and right in the *SIGHT* of the LORD thy God.

        We are all saved by grace through faith, but if you are living your life CONTRARY to the WORD of the Father, then your WALK is not matching your TALK.

        Matthew 7:21
        “NOT EVERYONE who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, BUT ONLY HE who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

        • We will have to respectfully agree to disagree.

  • And by heart I meant that no one knows if you have received His gift of salvation but you and God.

    • Here’s an example. I think I saw you say that your parents won’t let you have a webcam. You obey them right. Their house, their rules. What if you disregarded their rules. Things wouldn’t go so well for you I bet. God set-up the whole family order. Well God patterned this earthly order after the spiritual order. His house His rules. People who are active participants in Satan’s kingdom are disqualified for God’s kingdom. Can’t serve two masters. I don’t think people here are saying that every Christian is unsaved. But all Christians are not equal. I know Christians that go to bars and see objectionable movies. I also know Christians that are honestly living New Testament righteous lives to the best of their ability. I sure wouldn’t want any child of mine hanging around that first kind. The second group is likely saved but probably not experiencing all that they could be. I am convinced that churches aren’t seeing healings and miracles like people did in the New Testament is because a piece is missing. It takes spirit and truth to be an overcomer. Messiah/Holy Spirit + Torah truth = Power.

      • You seem to be a pretty nice person.

        • Thanks. The people here are nice too, it’s just that time after time people come here with an axe to grind that the knee-jerk-reaction might come off a little abrasive. If you have any questions or are really interested in digging deeper into the scriptures you can email me at drofnask48034@yahoo.com.

          • Thanks. The guy that runs this show is kind of scary.

        • Samantha, what IS scary is the thought that you might just NOT be secure in what you believe you “have”. From the comment from another it sounds as if you are still young and under your parents authority. It is hard for many to understand the Word of YHVH without study, prayer and guidance from the Ruach. But, it is not out of your reach because of your age. The only thing that will hinder it is your desire to do so or not, your desire to know the Truth. It is hard to be in “algebra” class when you can’t do “multiplication” yet. You have to learn for yourself, do not take anyone’s word, study it out in prayer, He will guide you.

          I have found that the most vocal objections come from those that are trying their hardest to make themselves believe what they are saying. We have all come to this same place in our spiritual walks. It sounds as if you may be there also. You can have the security that you are seeking, it is easy. Without having a firm foundation of WHAT it means to have the hope of salvation, obedience to Torah will not be understood.

          Romans 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, “Yesua is Lord,” and believe in your heart that YHVH raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

          Luke 11:28 He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of YHVH and obey it.”

          John 14:15″If you love me, you will obey what I command”

          John 14:23 “Yeshua replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him..”

          Acts 5:32 “We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom YHVH has given to those who obey him.”

          Romans 2:13 “For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in YHVH’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.”

          Do you see what those scriptures say? We need to have faith in Who and What Yeshua has done and is for us – the atonement sacrifice for our sins of TRANGRESSING THE TORAH. Why would He then say that the standard – the Torah – that we were condemned for in the first place is no longer in place? Why would He say that now that you have atoned for your sin of trangression of Torah, that there is no longer any sin? Does he say that? No –

          Romans 6:1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?

          Romans 6:12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.

          1 Tim 5:20 Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning.

          Heb 3:13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness.

          1 John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

          1 Peter 2:7This precious value, then, is for you who believe ; but for those who disbelieve, “THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE VERY CORNER stone,” 8 and, “A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE “; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed. 9 But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God’s OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light ; 10for you once were NOT A PEOPLE, but now you are THE PEOPLE OF YHVH ; you had NOT RECEIVED MERCY, but now you have RECEIVED MERCY.

          All through the Brit Hadakasha (New Testament), after Yeshua’s resurrection, it speaks to the believers about sin – the trangression of the Torah (law). If it had been “done away” with the why speak of sin to believers about what they had transgressed – the Torah.

          You can have assurance and security if He is your LORD. If you seek atonement for your sin of trangression of the Torah – His Word – by apprehending Yeshua’s blood sacrifice (the fulfillment of the sacrficial system listed in the Torah, He is each of the sacrifices listed) as YHVH’s Son. You agree with YHVH that you have broken His Word and seek to be forgiven and to be restored to fellowship with HIM. You seek to stay in that right relationship by OBEDIENCE to His Word – the same one that you transgressed in the first place and are now saying that you agree that you did, and want forgiveness for – and you now want to keep it and be in covenant with Him. You say that you want HIM to be the One that says what is Truth, what is right and wrong (not the worldly standard), that you will seek His Word as your standard – the Torah.

          Study covenant and you will see what it means to be in covenant with YHVH through Yeshua.

          It is scary to think that you might not be able to do so. But that is why He has given us the Ruach, to help us, as He says it is not too hard for us to keep, Deut 30:11. What is hard for some is changing their lives to line up with His Word as they will have to “stand out” (be set apart unto Him) in the crowd. That is the “denying ourselves” part. We have to WANT what He wants more than what WE want.

          We do not obey the Torah to apprehend the hope of salvation (that is ours on the day of judgment – we are set free from the wrath and second death), we do so BECAUSE we have it and are back in the right relationship with YHVH. Obedience to the Torah is the response to YHVH for His Salvation. Read JAMES. We aprehend the promise of salvation, our JUSTIFICATION, then we begin to be SANCTIFIED by our obedience to His Word – the Torah.

          We learn how to worship YHVH and how to live with our brothers and sisters in Yeshua through out obedience to the Torah (it teaches us HOW and HOW NOT TO).

          IF you have this heart, this understanding, then you can have assurance. It is a life long WALK, you don’t achieve perfection after saying the “sinner’s prayer” (that is like one snowflake on a glacier), it is a “race” like Shaul says. And you don’t start out at the finish line, you have to START running the race. We ALL have to, if we are professed Believers, Covenant partners, in relationship with YHVH through Yeshua.

          We who hold other professed Believers accountable (as we expect others to do so for us) are NOT your enemies, nor do we judge anyone’s spiritual state. We can only judge their actions 1 Cor 5 (as we are to do) which gives insight into their heart and desire to live a live for YHVH according to HIS Will. That is what we are doing when we tell our brothers and sisters that Torah is the standard of how we are to live.

          Having your sins – trangressions of Torah – pointed out is scary, embarrasing, can make us feel shame, are ugly and upsetting to us. NO ONE likes to “feel” badly about themselves. We like our “mask of righteousness” and do not want anyone (especially YHVH) to see our real face. We do not like to look in the mirror of the Word to see it either. When we fully understand that Yeshua died to give us freedom from all of that when we seek forgiveness through Him, we can have the courage to do so. That is the spiritual maturity that we strive for. Our freedom has boundaries. They are there for our safety, protection, well being, fellowship, love, relationships, forgiveness, restoration. That boundary is the Torah.
          Read Psalm 119. Do not be afraid to let YHVH show you your true self or be afraid to show your true face to YHVH through Yeshua, He has His hand extended in forgiveness already.

  • Amen Brother Zach!

    Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. Ecclesiastes 12:13

  • Do you find it strange that every single verse you quote is from Paul? Does it strike you as odd that Paul completely contradicts what we see written in the rest of the Book? Doesn’t it raise a red flag that these verses even seem to contradict what Paul himself said (and did) elsewhere in Scripture?

    First of all, Paul was revealed the mystery and unsearchable riches in Christ, Christ in us the hope of Glory. Ephesians 3:1-9 Cf. 1 Corinthians 4:1-6 and Colossians 1:23-29. Thus, the Pauline Epistles gives tremendous insights on the Dispensation of Grace and the New Testament that gives life. The Pauline epistles and the Gospels hold equal weight neither is more important than the other because both are the very Words of God. That being said Paul never contradicted Himself and quoting the Pauline epistles shouldn’t raise a red flag because they are the Word of God, what should raise a RED FLAG is your statements/questions above where you are questioning the authority Paul was given by God.

    • I’m not questioning at all anything Paul said. In fact I’m saying that everything Paul said lines up EXACTLY with what is written in the Torah. If you disagree, get a webcam and lets discuss on video, record it and put it on youtube. Sound good?

  • Oh I agree it lines up with Torah, the question is does it apply to someone who is dead to sin and alive in Christ? How can someone dead be still subject to the Law that sentences Him to death in the first place? Those in Christ who are alive are subject to the Law of Christ who lives forever. Tell me how can I love if I am dead in sin? Now if I am alive in Christ I can love as Christ loves because then I have become one with Christ.

    As for going on youtube and getting a webcam I am not interested since I can be sure you will only twist my words since I see you have a habit of twisting God’s Holy Word to fit your fleshly appeal of false knowledge.

    In love I say repent….

    Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning: And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.

    Joel 2:12-13

    • John, while it is certainly true that we are dead to the penalty of breaking the Torah (sin) thanks to the blood of Yeshua, it does not mean that the instructions the Father gave us to follow magically change or disappear. You do not have to go far to find verses penned by Paul himself which seemingly contradict your interpretation of his letters.

      There is continuity in Scripture and our understanding of Paul’s writings absolutely must fall in line with what we read in the rest of the Book. Whenever you have a chance, could you please provide your personal explanation of the following passages?

      1. Matthew 5:17-19
      2. Matthew 23:2-3
      3. 1 John 3:4
      4. 1 John 2:3-6
      5. Hebrews 10:26-27

      • 1. Verse 20 is often not taken into context. “For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.”
        Do you see the promised righteousness mentioned here anywhere YHWH Tsidkenu Jeremiah 23? No, because regardless if they partially obey the Torah but fail to believe in the promise they have fallen short of the glory of God. That righteousness is Christ and for them it meant believing in the promise Abraham was given by God which was a type of Christ.
        The righteousness of God is by faith and that would require believing we have transgress the Torah and acknowledging our sin. Cf. Psalm 32 and 51
        BTW I am not advocating that the Torah disappeared rather that the life that applied to it is dead and should be continued to be counted as dead otherwise there’s room for sin to dwell.

        On another note I have a question for you. How much of the Torah was fulfilled? Your answer is absolutely crucial to the understanding of the New Testament written in our hearts and not on stone.

        2. Despite the fact that Jesus wanted the disciples to avoid imitating their hypocrisy (cf. Matthew 16:6) that which they were to observe was the Torah which in turn should lead them to the promised Messiah. The Torah today still does that.

        3. Yes, sin is transgression of the Torah and that would mean that partial obedience to the Torah is sin too. This takes us back to Matthew 19:20 so unless your righteousness is perfect before God in Christ you will by no means enter into the Kingdom of God.

        4. John defines what he meant by keeping the Torah in 1 John 3:23. This is the same John that also wrote John 13:34-35 and John 15:10 (<< read carefully) On another note 1 John 2:6 is often quoted to mean literally when the Gospel of John is filled with passages where a literal interpretation is rebuked and a metaphorical/spiritual meaning is enforced thus revealing the true intent behind the Word of God. In other words, we are to walk as Jesus walked and how did He walk? In the SPIRIT OF COURSE IN THE WILL OF THE FATHER John 4:24.

        5. I agree if we sin after being saved by grace there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins. BUT He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.
        Proverbs 28:13

        • 1. Including Matthew 5:20 does not change the meaning of the previous verses nor does it contradict them in any way, shape, or form. Yeshua is telling us very clearly in verse 20 that if we blindly follow religious leaders like the scribes and pharisees (who did not keep the Torah properly, they nullified it through their tradition), no hope remains of eternal salvation. Ironically, we see religious leaders on the other side of the fence today (Christianity) doing the exact same thing as those scribes and pharisees — nullifying the Word of the Father through their own doctrine and traditions.

          Regarding your question, Yeshua became our perfect sin sacrifice and our high priest. We are under a new (renewed) Covenant now, but what exactly is that Covenant that we’re under?

          Jeremiah 31:31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,[a] says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.”

          …and a second witness for good measure:

          Hebrews 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.”

          The New Covenant contains all of the same instructions — homosexuality is still an abomination and eating pork will still ravage your body with disease. What has changed is those instructions are now written on our hearts, and we have the deep-down burning desire to do our best to faithfully obey them out of love for our Father. I’m not sure how one can honestly believe that those who do their best to obey Scripture and abstain from eating that which is called an abomination are jeopardizing their eternal well-being, while others who live life by their own rules are going to skate right through the Kingdom gates unchecked.

          2. So what you are saying is all non-believers should be following the instructions given in the Torah, but once they decide to “say the sinners prayer and ask Jesus into their heart” they are free to go back and live just as they were before they found the rulebook? I’m sorry, but this makes absolutely zero sense although I can see how it would certainly tickle the ears. Why would Yeshua (who came as our perfect example) live a perfect life and then sacrifice Himself in order that we could willfully break all of the rules that He came to teach? If Yeshua kept the Torah perfectly so that we don’t have to, what about all of the instructions that Yeshua didn’t keep (some Commandments only pertain to women, for example)? Are women still held by those instructions today since Yeshua did not personally observe them?

          3. Okay, so you’re agreeing that sin is transgression of the Torah yet, you feel you have been given a license to sin freely (transgress the Torah). You acknowledge what Scripture says is sin, yet you allow your flesh to live in it simply because no one can live a sinless life except our Messiah. Am I understanding you correctly?

          4. Exactly. We are to walk in the spirit (the Torah is spiritual, Romans 7:14), doing the will of our Father which is obeying His Torah. Yeshua walked out the will of the Father perfectly, all we need to do is be like Him. So the big question I have for you is this — as a Christian, why are you not walking exactly as Yeshua walked? WWJD? He kept the Father’s Appointed Times, His set-apart Sabbath, ate only that which was clean, and taught the Word of our Creator instead of laboring to explain it away.

          5. Hebrews 10:26-27 does not say “if we sin after being saved by grace there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins” — it tells us that if we continue to sin willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for our sins. In other words, if we continue to eat pork after we’ve received the knowledge of the truth (that it is abominable to our Father, aka Torah), the sacrifice of our Messiah is no longer acting as our sin covering.

          I pray that you will prayerfully consider taking a step back from your current understandings and reevaluate your beliefs based on what the whole Word says. Watch some of 119’s short teachings on these topics, they do a really nice job of laying everything out in an easy to understand manner — most importantly, they back everything up with Scripture.

          • Jason, I repeated myself too much in the other article concerning me being dead to sin and alive in Christ. Lawlessness as you would think I am living in is not applicable because I no longer live for it to even apply I am righteous in Christ and in Christ alone. Lawlessness are for those who do not have Christ as the center in their lives and can careless that they live as they please in other words those who are slaves to sins and not those who are made righteous in Christ or a made a son. (John 8) We are not made sons by our flesh’s attempt in producing works but rather born of God indicating a new nature (John 1) Christ isn’t a safety net to continue keeping the Torah in the flesh and that’s where this website and anyone who agrees with it goes dead wrong. IF you carefully read John 15:10 you will see a difference in believing falsely how we are to abide in the Father’s love by our works with Jesus as a crutch and the truth of how Jesus abiding in His Father’s commands and we are to abide in His which is the Law of Christ John 13:34-35 The Law of Christ requires for you to die in order to love like Jesus loved and that’s exactly what happened hence why we are regenerated Born again.

    • I’m not going to twist your words. It would be completely unedited.

  • My question to you is…. Why does the Hebrew Roots movement have so much hate? I feel that everything that they try to prove is done in such a hateful way. I thought we are to give an answer, a reason for the hope that you have. Do it with humility and respect. 1 Peter 3:15. If we are to love our neighbor then why all the harsh bashing Christians comments. It really makes me sad to see this going on. I have to say that it has moved me far away from this movement and back into my Christian Roots faith that teaches us to love and respect everyone. I don’t feel that Christ would be talking to people the way that this movement does. I Hope that you and everyone in this cult will see that it is wrong and that you all need to get back to loving your neighbor. Please understand you push more sheep away when you act in hate.

    • Sure some are angry they have been lied to their whole lives. Many people now see these lies how God sees them, with extreme sadness and even anger. This is how God sees sin. He hates it. Still I think we need to be gentile on our corrections. Don’t mistake passion and conviction for anger. And I think it may do you well to go back and look at the words of Jesus. He spoke very very harshly many times to the people he was addressing and even humiliated them in public. After all, this is why they wanted to kill Him.

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